Oh gawd. First, the S class and RL is totally different class. :slap:

MB and BMW are higher status than Acura. They command a larger premium. I don't quite see the value in a $52+k E320 that has the same equipment as a $43k RL. The quality can be debatably be better in a MB/BMW, but this does NOT imply that Acura's fit/finish it poor. And actually, the MB's C-class does have issues with quality.

Back to the value thing, let's compare.
MB E320: $47,615 (automatic, 221hp)
does not include sunroof ($1500), leather seats ($1,440), heated seats ($650), D changer ($400), Xenon HID lights ($1150)

BMW 530i: $43,070 (automatic, 225hp)
does not include heated seats ($600 package), leather seats w/front seat lumbar support ($1,850), CD changer ($400?), Xenon HID lights ($500), Fold down rear seats ($475!)


RL: $43,650 (automatic, 225hp)
Standard heated leather seats w/lumbar support, CD changer, sunroof, HID lights.


MB and BMW has always been aimed at the premium in the North American markets for decades, this is why they're "higher status". Plus, they do not carry a mainstream brand like Honda/Toyota/Nissan/GM/Ford does, where product overlapping and platform sharing is quite common.


Oh sure. I'm working at a client's corporate headquarters and looking straight out my window at the parking lot, I can see the executives parking lot which includes many premium brand vehicles, many costing over $50k. The cheapest one I see is 1 single Toyota Avalon, which probably belongs to the admin of the CEO.

Here's a tibbit for you, guess what the CEO of our client drives everyday? Answer: he doesn't drive anything. There's a Lincoln Town Car Limo escorting him everyday. He has several cars he owns drives, but he has a limo because he needs and wants to be on the same level playing field of status amoung his peers (the one with at least 7 figures in there accounts to their disposal).

I've spoken with some of the executives and they do not shop at Sears. That is a f*cking joke and the most ridiculus statement I have ever read. I was just talking to an executive manager of operations of our client the other day, and our conversation was on the subject about the brand new Nordstrom store in our city and how he will probably switch from shopping at Mark Shale to there more often.


Oh, and I call on this "study" you speak of.

And do you think Britney still lives in her trailer park too??? Even if Britney has a sebring, do you think that is her one sole car in her possession??? I'm not even going to research anything about Britney or your claim of her Sebring, but all I have point to is watch MTV's Cribs. Tell me if you see ONE person that has a much more than comfortable amount of $$$ that has 1 single non-premium brand automobile in his/her driveway. It is outragous the amount of wasteful spending these people spend on materialistic items. Who needs six $80k+ cars and SUVs in their driveways? For gawd-sake, John Travolta has basically an airport and his own jumbo jet in his name. You're a joke if you think these people shop at Sears. :slap:

 

MPM77 just got wned:

 

Quote:

MB and BMW has always been aimed at the premium in the North American markets for decades, this is why they're "higher status". Plus, they do not carry a mainstream brand like Honda/Toyota/Nissan/GM/Ford does, where product overlapping and platform sharing is quite common.

Well if they are aimed at the premium in North America they must offer quality. If not, why would anyone pay the premium.

Quote:

Back to the value thing, let's compare.
MB E320: $47,615 (automatic, 221hp)
does not include sunroof ($1500), leather seats ($1,440), heated seats ($650), D changer ($400), Xenon HID lights ($1150)

BMW 530i: $43,070 (automatic, 225hp)
does not include heated seats ($600 package), leather seats w/front seat lumbar support ($1,850), CD changer ($400?), Xenon HID lights ($500), Fold down rear seats ($475!)


RL: $43,650 (automatic, 225hp)
Standard heated leather seats w/lumbar support seats, CD changer, sunroof, HID lights.

Wow! You know how to research the prices of options on different cars! Yes, there is a premium to owning a MB/BMW, however, you’re not just buying the car, your also buying the experience! Lets see, take an RL in for service and get a song and a dance when you ask for a loaner. If you’re lucky they will give you an RSX, if not, it’s a trip to Enterprise rent a car for a Geo Metro.

Oh and if your trying to compare similarly equipped cars I think you need to add the following to the RL: Dual climate control, one touch windows, full size spare, infrared ignition switch, on board information (mpg/range/stopwatch/service interval, etc), 10-way power drivers seat, 10-way power passenger seat, etc. Oh that's right these things aren't offered on the RL!:bowdown:

Quote:

Oh sure. I'm working at a client's corporate headquarters and looking straight out my window at the parking lot, I can see the executives parking lot which includes many premium brand vehicles, many costing over $50k. The cheapest one I see is a 1 Toyota Avalon, which probably belongs to the admin of the CEO.

Here's a tibbit for you, guess what the CEO of our client drives everyday? Answer: he doesn't drive anything. There's a Lincoln Town Car Limo escorting him everyday. He has several cars he owns drives, but he has a limo because he needs and wants to be on the same level playing field of status amoung his peers (the one with at least 7 figures in there accounts to their disposal).

I've spoken with some of the executives and they do not shop at Sears. That is a f*cking joke and the most ridiculus statement I have ever read. I was just talking to an executive manager of operations of our client the other day, and our conversation was on the subject about the brand new Nordstrom store in our city and how he will probably switch from shopping at Mark Shale to there more often.

Oh, and I call on this "study" you speak of.

Learn how to read my friend before you get your panties in a bunch. :slap: I said "most" not all. Oh, and your huge sample size of TWO that you draw your conclusions from is completely indicative of your ignorance and has no statistical significance.

My intent was not to suggest that all millionaires wear $400 suites and shop at Sears. My point is that there are plenty of millionaires that shop for value and quality not for brand identity.

Quote:

And do you think Britney still lives in her trailer park too??? Even if Britney has a sebring, do you think that is her one sole car in her possession??? I'm not even going to research the Britney or your claim of her Sebring, but all I have point to is watch MTV's Cribs. Tell me if you see ONE person that has a much more than comfortable amount of $$$ that has 1 single non-premium brand automobile in his/her driveway. It is outragous the amount of wasteful spending these people spend on materialistic items. Who needs six $80k+ cars and SUVs in their driveways? For gawd-sake, John Travolta has basically has an airport and his own jumbo jet. You're a joke if you think these people shop at Sears.

Again you draw your conclusions from a select few. The celebrities that you see on Cribs are young, just came into money and flaunt it. Most of them went from rags to riches and they have no clue. However, someone who has accumulated wealth over the better part of his or her life is usually more conservative.

Do you honestly believe these people only shop at top line stores for everything? I've seen celebrities wearing GAP and Old Navy jeans and shirts. Do they buy these at Neimann Marcus? Or what about the Dickies brand, FUBU, Sean John, etc that a lot of rappers wear. These clothes are cheap. Last time I went to NM they did not carry those. However, Sears does!

 

Perception. This is why you're paying for a VERY high premium in MB and BMWs. This is why you will never see a full size V8 RWD Chevy with all the bells and whistle selling for $50k. Hell, even that new $60k or something W8 VW Phaton is having criticims and doubts of its success because of the VW label.

So you're willing to pay thousands more for this extra "experience"? So you're calling paying $10k more for a MB a value because they can rent you a car that might cost somewhere along the lines of $40/day to rent a midsize. Holy fricking sht!!! What a VALUE!!!

Again, those are just excessive options that cost thousands more. The RL is for practical minded folks who wants a little bit of luxury at a value. Do they need dual climate an extra 2 way in their power seats? Probably not. My point was that Acura is a better value than BMW and MB. Compare the features/price of the TL-S to the BMW 330 and MB C320. You will get my point. :slap:


Hmm...so where's this "study" you speak of? I interact with multiple clients at the executive level on a business and personal base. I only laugh that you think thiee high 6 figures income earners with their million dollars homes shop at Sears and drive Camrys. :rofl:

You're so-called "study" is still full of BS. Can you imagine an executive driving to Sears in his limo to shop for a $400 suit?!?!? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I'm not doubting some people who makes a very comfortable income do shop at Sears or such stores like it, but not "most" you speak of. That's the most BS I've ever heard so far in this thread.

My sample has more weight than your so-called "study". :slap:

You say I draw conclusion on select few, but you drew conclusion on ONE. :slap:

I'm sure the "more conservatives" millionares you speak of really live in middle class houses and drives around in Chevy Malibus and shop at Sears for their wardrobe.

Old school money will never buy Chevys and Dodges, nor will they ever shop at Sears for their wardrobes.
Conveniently, now you're switching back to these "rags to riches" celebrities. And these rappers drives what kind of cars? Do they drive Camrys and Buicks or the bling bling Escalades and Bentleys. I believe most of the line of clothing you stated are their casual wears. I very much doubt you will see a $60 Fossil watch or a $400 Sears suit. More likely a $10k Rolex or $8k Armani suit. :slap:

I guess with your logic, Nordstrom, Neimann Marcus, Armani, Rolex, Mercedes, BMW, should all just go out of business, because even millioniars are not buying thier stuff. Everybody from top to bottom lives in middle class life.



We're getting way off track. Mercedes and BMW do not provide a higher or equal value to Acura. "Most" celebraties and rich people do NOT shop at Sears for clothes or buy $400 suits over custom tailored and name brands. "Most" millionares do NOT drive Sebrings over Mercedes and BMWs. If you think otherwise you're a fool. :slap:

 

The survey was listed on http://finance.yahoo.com. However, it was a several weeks ago and I can not locate it.

Anyhow, I am not going to make this another long winded post because you don't seem to read what I write anyway. Yes, there is a premium I agree. However, there are also advantages. They don't give you a rental, they give you a new demo to drive. Also, you say that the premium that MB charges is not merited. I gave you numerous examples of what you get and you just brush them off as "excessive options". Why? Because Acura doesn't offer them? Look around:closeup: other luxury car manufacturers offer some of these "excessive options". Also, I want you to put an RL next to an E-class and open/close all the doors. I guarantee the E-class will be more solid. Have you ever closed the sunroof on an RL. It like the accord, sounds like a plane landing on the roof. Not in a Benz. It's quiet and refined!

How can you compare a TL - S to a 330 or C320? The TL rides like an 82 Monte Carlo dropped to the ground. Yes it handles good, but so does the 330 - but a much more comfortable ride. Oh and the torque steer on the TL-S is great!

Where did I draw a conclusion on One? :slap: I never made any inference to one person!

I could go on and on and on, but for the sake of everyone else in this thread I'll stop.

Getting back on the topic that began this bickering. Hybrid/IMA

I commented that if the next RL was a hybrid Honda would need to be very careful how it was marketed. Most people do not know much about hybrids and are very skeptical. I also said IMA in my opinion is not the optimal choice for a luxury auto. Unless the engine can deliver high performance at low RPM. On the other hand, Honda/Acura needs either awd or rwd to successfully compete in the current marketplace. With the current hp war going on FWD is not gonna cut it. I think this is a critical time for Honda and only time and execution will tell.

One last question, Why won't Honda let the cat out of the bag about future vehicles?

 

I never said I would take an RL over a E-class or 5 series. Hell, the 540 and M5 is the most perfect of all sedans. I've already stated the RL is an old dog in Honda's line.

You may have misinterpreted my definition of value. By the Honda/Acura's emphasis on value I mean features/price. The whatever value in a free demo or rental or "service" of MBs are diminishing values because the cost or premiums are to high to justify them as of being value.

Every magazine has put the TL-S alongside with the BMW 330. Your interpretation of the TL's handling is very exagerated.

Your claim of Britney Spears with her Sebring. :slap:

Similar doubts and skeptism were said about VTEC back in 1991 and look at where production model w/VVT has gone from there.

 

Maybe my point was not clear. When you buy a MB or BMW there are intangibles that you pay for. (i.e. free demo, customer service). Most if not all intangibles cannot be quantified, therefore, you have a premium. Your point on whether you get a demo or a rental car. If you took an RL in for service you would rather drive a rental car (most likely a grand am or something) instead of a comparable demo (TL/RL)? There's no value to that?

I know the TL-S is compared to 330 in all the magazines, but you have to admit it is far less superior.

 

If MB gives away a "free" 20oz pack of jellybeans with their cars and at the same time charge an extra $500, does this equate to extra value?

I would not say the 330 is "superior". More fun to drive and higher status, yes, but at about $10,000 more and smaller than a TL-S? :dunno:

If money was no issue, give me a 330, but since I live in reality and make a more than modest living like the average American professional and there's other prorities in my life that is better spent than a highly depreciable automobile, give me a TL-S and I'll put the extra $10k, I saved, on investments or for a housing addition. At least I have ~90% of the satisfaction equivilant of driving a BMW and an extra $10k better spent or invested somewhere else.

 

If we were to have a war with Iraq, would we brag on CNN about our superior weaponry in great detail, show how we're going to use them, and put up our battle plans? If you don't think automotive companies have spies and copy other designs heavily, you're kidding yourself.

 

Quote:

If MB gives away a "free" 20oz pack of jellybeans with their cars and at the same time charge an extra $500, does this equate to extra value?

Why are you fixated on these irrelevant similes? You want to talk about Value! Lets compare the RL to the Accord (yeah, I know the accord is new.....blah, blah, blah). Here are the particulars:

*Prices do not include Navi

So I ask, by this comparison is an RL worth the extra $17,350????? Besides the Xenon lights ($1,000 aftermarket), all the other options that the RL offers that the Accord doesn't must be "EXCESSIVE OPTIONS"!! :jlammy: So, if you went and bought the Xenon's that would leave a premium of about $16,350 to own an RL. However, as I said before you do pay for intangibles. The definition of which is Something intangible, especially an asset that cannot be perceived by the senses. Often used in the plural: intangibles such as goodwill and dedication. In relation to the RL and the Accord, intangibles would include service, build quality, etc. For example, the RL is quieter on the inside than an Accord. Probably because of better soundproofing. The floor mats and carpeting are of better quality in the RL. These things aren't listed on the sticker or in the literature that markets these cars but it does exist and its intangible, something you can't specifically charge for. Do these "intangibles" equate to $16,350. Probably not. But would an executive drive an RL or an Accord? Probably an RL! You could also do the same type of comparison with the TL and Accord with similar results but less severe.
:slap: :rockon: :yay: :wiggle: