Dave C

Well fuel dispersion is pretty well handled by the injectors and combustion chamber swirl. Nothing much is going to happen in 1.5" (est) of the port. That why top Honda tuners reshaped the combustion chamber and not the ports.

My point is airflow is crucial and the only obvious impediments are port matching and the huge (relatively) valve guide boss.

Regarding valve spring rates: It's a compromise between valve float at high RPM and seat pounding at lower RPM.

1stGenCRXer

Actually, Honda engineers and tuners have found that their best results are coming from a proper flow and "swirl" of the air flow starting in the port. By buffeting the air enough to "attack", if you will, the fuel to further disperse it before entering the combustion chamber, they're finding that a more even burn is accomplished, which equals more power with more reliability in tuning. Even though the port runners are not very long, it does have a dramatic affect on how the air is going to enter the combustion chamber.

ferrealb16

this thread has worn me out.
i know what im talking about. i dont like to go into great detail. ive been learning engines seriously since i was 9. i dont know everything, i probably dont know as much as you, but i do know a lot. my buddy is josh, the first moderator at hybridforum that knew everything about a honda. he was taught how to build engines from ralph shumacher, head engine builder for hendricks motorsport. josh has had 3 crx/civic's that ran quicker than 14's, his best runnin a high 12, note all these cars are n/a. in fact, his crx that he has right now, runs a mid 14 with the only after market peice being a hks dragger air filter. he just strengthened all of his factory valve train parts, and bench grinded his cam. he also read thru everyones anti-p&p posts and couldnt understand, just like i.

so lets get back to what this thread turned into-a port and polish haters haven. someone dropped a flow banch fact that a gsr head flows 310cfm's? well if it flows 310 cfm's from the factory, if you take the casting out, smooth it out, create less blockage, and reduce windage, wouldnt the head be able to flow more cfm's? i mean, to me its common sense. and to angle jobs. someone said a 3 angle is all a honda head needs. well, facts are facts, and a radius valve job flows the best, provides a better seat, and helps prevent carbon build up on the seat. and your valve guides are pressed in, and should have zero movementat any rpm. if your valve guides have movement, something was done wrong. to get valve guides out you have to heat the head in the over and press them out. in fact, a good head shop wont even touch valve guides if they are in good condition. i had to wheel and deal my guy to press them out. and about spring rates, ferrea makes 2 different dual valve springs-a street version, which goes for about 200 for the set, a comparable price to skunk2, jun, or crower. or they have a strip version which goes for 300, i have the latter.

price listing
jun valve spring&ti. retainers go for 389.00
toda egg-shaped valve springs sell for 360.00
crower valves go for 271.26 at crower.com
crower b series dual valve springs sell at 298.67
crower eibach dual springs sell for 355.25
crower ti retainers are 161.22
crower dual springs&ti retainers sell for 427.69
skunk2 valves with nitride coating go for around 360.00
skunk2 racing valve springs cost 281.32
skunk2 ti retainers sell for 160.00
ferrea valves cost 310.00 from raceeng.com
ferrea 7* valve locks cost 68.96
ferrea alu-mag ret.(lighter than ti for higher rpm's) cost 158.00
ferrea dual valve springs cost 289.72
ferrea valves guides cost 58.64
ferrea valve spring seat locators cost 50.00
so there you go, i have exact prices on most top quality valve train components. i dredged thru the internet for 2 months before i bought a single peice, so i could find the best possible price. i could have bought all honda oem peices for cost, or japanese oem peices for cost, but hey, spending a few extra bucks was worth it to me. the only downside to ferrea is the fact that you have to buy their locks (which lock better by the way, are cnc'd, heated, and nitride coated by the looks of them) and their seat locators for the valve springs (which is fine because they do prevent valve spring binding. i have a 2 page valve train price guide covering about 10 different web sites.

but everyone on this site is smarter than me, maybe ill just bow out because i dont have a leg to stand on when i open my mouth. sorry for the inconvenience all mighty honda builders who are against p&p'ing their head because it flows so well from the factory they think they should kiss mr. honda's ass for being lucky enough to buy a honda. sarcasm just ran a little thick, sorry.

ponder this for a moment, fit the throttle body from the 3.2tl to a civic type r intake manifold...the 3.2 throttle body is 80mm...that will help the engine breathe, no?

qtiger

First off, P&P is an essential in building a strong motor. However, if someone ported out a head like you recommend, you would lose so much flow it wouldn't even be funny.

If your buddy wants to join and add some commentary, he can go ahead.

An 80mm throttle body would almost certainly lose you area under the horsepower curve, though you may see some slight top end improvement on a really peaky built motor. That is like running dual 3" exhausts on a B series engine. It has the potential to flow more, but the bottom line is that intake and exhaust flow rely heavily on gas velocity in addition to flow.

Additionally, I still have seen no proof, information, or even an anecdote on why all of the products you are repeatedly telling us are crap are indeed what you say they are. So come on, if you are going to make a statement, prove it.

Give us information on how hogging out ports will increase flow. Flow bench charts would be nice.

Do the same with 5 and 7 angle cuts.

As for what you and your friend have done, I really don't care. You can make a car very fast without having an inkling of a clue about what you are doing.

ferrealb16

do you know what youre talking about or are you pickin up tidbits from 1stgencrx? and you are the one who is mouthy, so let me start. ive done 150 mph thru the desert on a bored and built ktm bike. i jumped 50 feet in the air with a turbocharged 1600cc vw 2 seat dune buggy. ive done 167 mph in my daily driven civic. ive done 100 foot wheelies on a 3.5 hp honda engine powered mini bike that has been worked and twerked. ive drifted a twerked 49cc honda spree at 40 mph.

why would my buddy join a site full of idiots such as yourself? he wanted to reply to one of 1stgen's posts, but we had lost motion assemblys we had to put back into my head. he respects people who know what they are talkin about, like 1stgen, but he gets turned away from people like you. people who run their pretending to know what they are talking about but only re-animate points that have already been made by a person who has 2 valid cents to share. so why dont you shut your motherphuckin mouth, and let 1stgencrx school me, and drop his knowledge.

when i talk p&p, i dont mean run all the intake ports together. in fact, i simply said you just want to clean it up, smooth it out, and knife edge a couple of parts. and with the exhaust, i plainly said keep it small so you keep velocity up. has your head ever been touched by a p&p bit? do you even know how to portmatch your manifold to your head? do you know what 4340 refers to? or what about 7000 series? i take this **** so seriously, i have 2.5 in titanium tubing runnin to my titanium muffler. and im about to buy an an-r header and make a carbon copy out of titanium. plain and simple *****, shut your ****in mouth.

MrFatbooty

If you "take this **** so seriously" and we don't, why bother to talk to us?

qtiger

Neither I nor any other mod have made a single personal attack, used any offensive language, or demeaned anyone in any way. In addition, we explain our points clearly, calmly, and without undue personal bias. That is how things are done here, and if you don't shut your mouth, cap your ego, think about what you are going to say, and then talk like an adult, you'll find yourself banned the next time you post.

MrFatbooty

Ferrealb16-

I believe you have come to the conclusion that someone, somewhere in this thread claimed that stock Honda heads are perfect from the start and that porting is a waste of time. Please excuse me in advance if I am incorrect in my assesment. I feel like you are arguing that heads need to be ported and you have the impression that everyone else disagrees.

What has been claimed is essentially this:

• Instead of making the biggest port possible, it is necessary to shape ports to encourage high velocity flow through those ports.
• A head which pulls high numbers on a flow bench because of huge ports doesn't necessarily perform the best because at such a high volume of flow the motor is unable to create enough vacuum to sustain velocity.

Please understand that what has been argued is that small displacement motors benefit from high-velocity ports rather than ones similar to those found on large V8s; not that Honda heads will always loose performance when ported.

At any rate, there is more than one way to solve a problem. There are many different good ways to port a head, build a motor, whatever. In most cases there is no 100% absolutely correct answer.

You obviously have experience with this subject matter and you're obviously an intelligent guy. Please try to stay calm and contribute to the discussion without picking a fight. I haven't bothered to debate this topic because of all the hostility. I'm a patient guy which is why I haven't blown up at you or tossed around insults; I would appreciate the same treatment in return. Not many other people have as much tolerance for the sort of attitude which you've brought to the table thus far.

It's fine to disagree with people about something. That's how we learn. When you choose to disagree please do so by stating your point and showing evidence as to why you believe so. If you present a well thought-out response without trying to insult the person you disagree with, then they will most likely engage in discussion with you over the points you have made. Discussion does not mean insulting someone's character to make them feel bad about themself and concede your point. If you are right people are generally capable of seeing that without being verbally bashed over the head.

If you feel you can carry yourself in a civil manner (and by no means do you have to write an essay such as this one) please feel free to post your opinions. If you choose to continually insult people and talk about "this guy who's helping you" as a means of validating your claims you will find a rather unreceptive audience. Try not to get caught up too much in this, because after all it is just the internet.