mberndt,

No offence dude, but you have A LOT too learn about AFR tuning in general. You can be too rich you know. You can be rich to the point where you can start to wash your rings. Does your AFR gauge tell you whether you running precisely 9:1 AFR or 11:1 AFR? all your gauge knows is that it is rich. Your gauge might say 10 AFR, and that makes you think you are safe. But those AFR gauges can be off by as much as 2-3 points. So that means that it can say 10 AFR, but your actual AFR might be 8, 9, 10, or even 11, 12, or 13 to 1. While I was street tuning my car it was running very rich almost to the point where I was going to wash the rings. My WB controller was reading 10:1 and it got as low as 9:1, which is dangerously rich. And you know what? my "butt dyno" could not tell the difference when my whole boost map was reading 9:1, 10:1 and then 11:1.

A wideband is not just good for optimizing your fuel to make power. It is also good for adjusting your fuel so you dont blow your motor. An FMU and inline pump is fine if that's all you are using. It raises fuel almost predictabely. The only thing that could throw it off is the condition of your fuel system. Just cause you have a T28 doesn't mean anything, you can still blow your motor with that, or wash your rings like I mentioned earlier.

And if you are a cheapskate, then you dont even need to buy your own wideband setup. You could borrow somebody elses. But a wideband setup only costs $270-$330 shipped and that's it. I sold my brand new Zeitronix Zt-2 for $225 just a few weeks ago. Widebands are not that expensive, and they are not that hard to install. There is also Uberdata and CromeFREE which you can use to adjust your fuel and timing with more flexibility then an AFC hack or FMU setup. For around $250 you can have a UD or Crome ready setup, and that price includesw a new Walbro 190 or 255lph fuel pump, DSM 450's, a chip burner, and to pay somebody to solder up your ECU.

 

First off how do you KNOW that your running rich? Your method of measuring your afr is about as accurate as sticking your head up your tailpipe. your gauge tells you shit for information.It's your motor so go ahead an rely on it to tell you what you want to hear/see.
secondly, what does the turbo size have to do with anything? If your lean your lean regardless if your running a 14b turbo or a t4 turbo, either way your gauge won't tell you any different.
Thirdly, I care more about reliablity then anything else. What good if 400whp if it only lasts half way down the track. Reliablilty is number one period. It's no different then the average joe running his car on the street, what good is a turbocharged engine if it's sitting in your garage parked because you blew the motor? Everything comes back to reliablity period.

To answer your question, yes you should have a high flow fuel pump if your running a fmu. The stock pump with stock injectors and a 12:1 fmu is only good for about 4psi before it starts to lean out. It's gets dangerously lean above 4psi. And yes I tested that to get my info, it's not just some number I pulled out of my ass. I'm not one to spread usless info in an effort to sound smarter then I am.
We mention tuning because you "think" you know the condition of your tuning when you really don't. If you don't want to fork over the cash for a wideband 02, do yourself a favor and get your car on a dyno with a wideband 02, throw in a fuel pump and adjust the afr with the afc.
Every car is different, you cant base your situation on your brothers car it's a completely different car.
i'll say it again, when I had a lightshow (aka air/fuel ratio gauge) in my car, it would read lean when I knew for a fact that I wasn't. it would start stoich and about 5psi would peg in the lean area all the way to redline. It's funny bacause the wideband 02 that we were tuning my car with showed an air/fuel ratio of about 12:1.....I'm telling you they are worthless.

 

mberndt,

Her eis something else for you to read. I posted it on a few other sites, and I'm posting it on here just for you. You can either do the FMU/inline setup or this one I'm posting which will be a lot more reliable.

CROME ENGINE MANAGEMENT

quote from www.pgmfi.orgmain
Crome (Cui's ROM Editor) is ROMEditor that John Cui wrote. Its feature that differentiates itself from other ROMEditors is that it supports the use of Java Script to control it and implement new features. The Crome Script API allows you to extend the capabilites of the editor with relative ease. People have already written many scripts for Crome, most of which can be found on the PGMFI Source Forge page.

Crome is available in 3 levels...CromeFREE which is free, CromePRO which is $149 and has several added features, and CromeDEALER which can be used commercially to make money and has several features available only to CromeDEALER. Some of the features that CromePRO has which are worth mentioning are as follows: integrated datalogging with replay feature, knock logging, and auto-tune (few bugs reported). A few other notable features are in the making such as live auto tuning. Crome is also very user friendly, and setting it up for real time tuning with Ostrich and datalogging is very easy.

For more information on Crome's features click the link http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?t=4383


GENERAL ECU CHIPPING INFO

Here is a list that I have posted several times which covers the basic pieces of equipment you'll need for DIY ECU chipping and tuning. You'll want to have a laptop to use in the car or at least be able to borrow one from a friend. The prices below do not include shipping and handling.

BARE ESSENTIALS
$$$ - laptop but you *can* use a PC, but you'll between your car and PC a lot
$15 - ECU chipping/socketing supplies: moates.net "UBER 1" kit
$25-$75 - ECU socketing: moates.net does installation services as well as others on the net
$55-$85 - EPROM burner: ebay.com "Willem Enhanced" or moates.net "BURN 1"
$10-$45 - datalogging cable: Nokia or most cell phone cables, superdroids cable, moates.net Hulog

That covers the basics...all you need are some larger injectors and a fuel pump that can support your power goals. You can download CromeFREE or Uberdata and use those to change fuel, timing, and other options like VTEC x-over, disable O2 sensor and much more. You ECU can be made datalog-capable with the addition of a cable to your ECU's CN2 port. You can use a Nokia cell phone cable, any datalog proven cell phone cable, a superdroids cable, or the moates.net hulog. Before getting your ECU chipped find out what datalogging cable setup you wantto go with. Have the person socketing yoru ECU solder in the wiring or pin header into CN2 at the same time the ECU is being socketed. Just make sure you tell them what wires go to which CN2 pin location.

OPTIONAL ITEMS
$300-$330 - wideband setup: either a Innovate LM1 or PLX300 (DO NOT get a Zeitronix Zt-2).
$175 - Ostrich emulator: allows for real time tuning
$149 - Crome users upgrade from CromeFREE to CromePRO

The wideband is a good thing to have if you plan on tuning your own car. You can either buy one or borrow one from a friend, or just use the one that your tuner has atthe dyno shop. You'll want to stay away from the Zeitronix due to the nature of it's O2 sensor voltage which is parabolic as opposed to other wideband types which are linear. This difference makes the Zeitronix hard to setup for use with Crome and Uberdata, which is why they are still not supported by either one. The Innovate LM1 has it's own datalogging software. This is good if you want to use CromeFREE which does not have integrated datalogging (CromePRO does though). You may still have to buy a few pieces of hardware to be able to use the LM1's datalogging software. The PLX 300 does not come with any datalogging software so you must use it from within your EMS. AFAIK you wont be able to use the PLX300 with CromeFREE since that level of Crome doesn't have datalogging. IMO the $149 I spent to get CromePRO was well worth it to be able to datalog and auto-tune with Crome.

 

Hey,
Thanks for the info, those are some great explanations...
Yes, I know I need to learn alot about AFR tuning in general that's why I ask in-depth questions... But i'm confused... See what I mean::
here Blueshadow says:

"A wideband is not just good for optimizing your fuel to make power. It is also good for adjusting your fuel so you dont blow your motor. An FMU and inline pump is fine if that's all you are using. It raises fuel almost predictabely. The only thing that could throw it off is the condition of your fuel system."

So, he's saying it's fine if that's all ur using, yet B16hybrid says

"To answer your question, yes you should have a high flow fuel pump if your running a fmu."

Here he says use a fuel pump, which I intend to anyway... Then GSR wannabe says

"so I can tell you that you should have listened to us in the first place. "

Umm, yeah I'm trying to get some advice, but it's pretty confusing...

So, I happened to meet some asian dude right near my house, who has a 5g civic with a turbo, n apparently has a small tuning shop that does uberdata n such...he had a IHI turbo with dsm 370cc injectors, resistor box from accord, and he and his friend at his shop do tune the ROMs...
So, I'm gonna pay him a visit n see what he can do for me...
Ill keep u guys posted, and thanks for the input.
P.S. Blueshadow, as for the ecu stuff, I have a chipped P28 that i did myself, so that's already covered, I just wanted to know about Uberdata and the associated components.

Later,
Mike

 

I'm kind of confused as to where your confused.
The wideband will only give you an accurate reading as to how rich or lean your afr is. I think your getting confused by his post because he says that it's good for optimizing and creating power. Thats done with other tuning devices such as uberdata, chrome,hondata, etc. The WB will do the same as your afr gauge you have now, but be accurate instead of inaccurate.

I wouldn't recomend running a fmu set-up without a high flow pump, it's just not a good idea imo. fuel pumps are cheap and it's cheap insurance....

Let us know how your visit goes, I think you'll be happy with the results.

 

Wasn't trying to flame, but you weree saying that you were using the a/f guage to determine if you were running rich /lean. The point that we're trying to make is that the meter that lights up from green to orange to red is just for show, not showing you anything about your true air fuel ratio. Sorry about that, but there are alot of people that post asking questions and when they get good advice from reliable sources they blow it off...I guess I was just 'blowing off'...pun intended

 

We are all saying the same thing, but just wording it differently.

Even though an FMU is not the best setup, at least it's predicatable and tried and tested. The reason it's not a good setup is it puts a lot of strain on your fuel system and injectors. To be able to supply enough fuel an inline fuel pump is needed and of course the FMU. There's in tank and inline pump, but you want an inline pump if you are using an FMU. A wideband setup on a FMU wouldn't be entirelt pointless. You can still use it to monitor your AFR's and if you see it going dangerously lean under boost, you can let off the throttle.

Now if you already have a chipped P28 then you are pretty much ready for Uberdata or Crome. On thing you can do is solder in a $9-$10 cell phone data cable to be able to datalog through your ECU. Now if you are lucky those guys you talked to have a wideband they can hook up to your car. From there all they have to dois make a basemap on UD or Crome, and start adjusting your fuel based off of your actual AFR's. The only things you'll need for your fuel system are some injectors and an intank fuel pump. A set of DSM 450's can be found for $40-$80 used, and a Walbro 190-255lph pump can be found for $79, $89 or $99.

The good thing about UD, and Crome is they also allow you to change your timing while in boost. With an FMU setup you either have to manually mess with the dizzy, which is not the best idea or you have to get an MSD BTM or something. And of course you can adjust your fuel in boost and vacuum at any RPM. With UD and Crome you can also adjust your VTEC x-over point and a few other things.

 

Hey guys,
Thanks for all the info, it's made understanding the whole tuning issue much easier...
I think I'm gonna go with Uberdata b/c you can change many parameters, such as timing control and vtec x-over, but I was originally confused b/c while at the same time some people tell me that FMU is trash, others say it 'will work fine'... I know it's trash cause u can't tune, but I just wanted to know if it would work for the time being, until I could get Uberdata. I'm gonna pay the asian dude a visit today or tomorrow, and I'll keep u guys posted on the progress...
P.S. the AFR gauge is from Defi, and it has numbers on it instead of LED's, so that's why I thought it was a little more accurate than the LED one, but I totally understand that I need a WB, just don't wanna buy it unless I absolutely must... Maybe this dude, Lin, can help me out...

Thanks,
Mike

 

Yah FMU's aren't very reliable. There is always a chance that it might not deliver enough fuel in boost and it would cause you to lean out. It's a gamble...you might get lucky and your FMU setup will cause you to run on the rich side, or you could be one of the unlucky ones and end up blowing your motor.

 

dude, im sorry mberndt, but you are a fucking idiot! There are experts here for a reason. that reason is to help idiots like you to have a more RELIABLE street car. tuning is not just to make the MAX amount of power, but its to make sure everything is in proper working order. There is nothing better you can do for your car than tune it. whether you have minor bolt-ons or a T3/Gt40 blowzilla .63 a/r turbo setup. You seem to be fine with it "running a little lean" so let it be. well my friend, your gonna have serious issues down the road and remember it when you blew these guys off when they provided some seriously good information to you. Youd be better off sticking your head up your exhaust pipe cuz thats where you belong. kiss my ass. Thank you to all the guys that provided good info! I found it very interesting and learned some good stuff.