The Debate
Wannabe yuppie
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: Madison, WI
Originally Posted by reno96teg
ok, this i agree with as well. i don't think i ever claimed that everyone abuses, because that's clearly not true. but i do believe that there is far more abuse than there should be.
again, i don't believe welfare or other such social programs should be abolished. but i do believe they are in some serious need of reform. do you agree with me on that?
again, i don't believe welfare or other such social programs should be abolished. but i do believe they are in some serious need of reform. do you agree with me on that?
The biggest problem with social programs is the potential for people to plunge themselves further and further into debt in spite of those programs. Maybe if it were tied into their credit ratings more, that would help. But then you have businesses which specialize in high risk credit. As long as there's a buck to be made off of one demographic or another, companies are going to do what they can to make that buck.
If you have some sort of improvement in mind, us utopian-society-wanting liberals are more than willing to hear about it.
Wannabe yuppie
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: Madison, WI
Originally Posted by DVPGSR
Agreed. But no bank is going to give me a loan if I do not provide any information on my work nor provide a monthly income. If I have no job and a monthly income of $0.00 I am not getting a car no matter what I agree to pay.
Most people on welfare have some kind of job but for whatever reason they are not in a position to earn the income necessary to support their family.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Ossining, New York
Originally Posted by MrFatbooty
Sure, but the amount of preaching in here by the conservative contingent amounts to a collective cry for abolishment.
The biggest problem with social programs is the potential for people to plunge themselves further and further into debt in spite of those programs. Maybe if it were tied into their credit ratings more, that would help. But then you have businesses which specialize in high risk credit. As long as there's a buck to be made off of one demographic or another, companies are going to do what they can to make that buck.
If you have some sort of improvement in mind, us utopian-society-wanting liberals are more than willing to hear about it.
The biggest problem with social programs is the potential for people to plunge themselves further and further into debt in spite of those programs. Maybe if it were tied into their credit ratings more, that would help. But then you have businesses which specialize in high risk credit. As long as there's a buck to be made off of one demographic or another, companies are going to do what they can to make that buck.
If you have some sort of improvement in mind, us utopian-society-wanting liberals are more than willing to hear about it.
I need sleep...
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,632
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From: NH
Originally Posted by MrFatbooty
Sure, but the amount of preaching in here by the conservative contingent amounts to a collective cry for abolishment.
The biggest problem with social programs is the potential for people to plunge themselves further and further into debt in spite of those programs. Maybe if it were tied into their credit ratings more, that would help. But then you have businesses which specialize in high risk credit. As long as there's a buck to be made off of one demographic or another, companies are going to do what they can to make that buck.
If you have some sort of improvement in mind, us utopian-society-wanting liberals are more than willing to hear about it.
The biggest problem with social programs is the potential for people to plunge themselves further and further into debt in spite of those programs. Maybe if it were tied into their credit ratings more, that would help. But then you have businesses which specialize in high risk credit. As long as there's a buck to be made off of one demographic or another, companies are going to do what they can to make that buck.
If you have some sort of improvement in mind, us utopian-society-wanting liberals are more than willing to hear about it.
Here is my original rant. I do not think welfare should be abolished, there is a definate need for it in our society. I do however think our current form of it is wrong and needs to be overhauled and laid out some very high-level ideas for what needs to be done.
Originally Posted by DVPGSR
What I am going to post is from my own experiences with people on welfare and in noway am I using it to represent the welfare system as a whole. The points of view in this post are my own based upon my own observations and conversations with people being supported by the state.
The welfare program sucks! The way we go about implementing it does nothing but breed more welfare recipients. Welfare breeds welfare. If you do not work and apply for welfare you get a check every month and can live in section 8 housing. Both of these are paid for by the government...so it is your's and my tax dollars hard at work. If you are on welfare and want a bigger check, have a kid. Do you want more money? Have another kid. Do you want even more money? Have another kid! The people that receive this welfare and live in section 8 housing have nothing to take pride in. There is no job, there is no house to take care of, nothing. Why do you think poor neighborhoods are always run down? Because the people who own the buildings do not care about them and they get their money from the state every month and the people that live there do not care because nothing is theirs.
But what about their kids. Often times a mother has children with multiple fathers, most of the time the fathers are either dead, in jail, or no longer around. The children grow up in welfare doing what needs to be done to survive. They see their favorite rappers and ball players driving around in big SUVs with 20" chrome rims talking about being tough and think that is the life they are to live. These kids do not care about school because noone makes them care. They deal drugs and steal for extra money so they can go to the local store for a new pair of Enyce jeans, or they just kill or rob someone for it. (It has happened hear before) Then these kids start having kids and the whole cycle starts all over and before you know it you have third and fourth generation welfare recipients who know nothing but welfare.
This is the cycle that needs to be broken. Throwing more money or government programs at the situation does nothing to help it because the core of the problem remains the same. You can give a man meat and fish and he can feed his family once, but teach him to hunt and fish and he can feed his family forever. This is where we need to be. Welfare needs to be restructured so that people can own their own homes so they have something tangible to take pride in and take care of. They need to be given the skills necessary so they can get their own jobs to support their own families. They need to learn and cherish the value of an education so that their children will embrace it in order to get a better job and break the cycle of welfare breeding welfare.
OK end of my morning rant.
The welfare program sucks! The way we go about implementing it does nothing but breed more welfare recipients. Welfare breeds welfare. If you do not work and apply for welfare you get a check every month and can live in section 8 housing. Both of these are paid for by the government...so it is your's and my tax dollars hard at work. If you are on welfare and want a bigger check, have a kid. Do you want more money? Have another kid. Do you want even more money? Have another kid! The people that receive this welfare and live in section 8 housing have nothing to take pride in. There is no job, there is no house to take care of, nothing. Why do you think poor neighborhoods are always run down? Because the people who own the buildings do not care about them and they get their money from the state every month and the people that live there do not care because nothing is theirs.
But what about their kids. Often times a mother has children with multiple fathers, most of the time the fathers are either dead, in jail, or no longer around. The children grow up in welfare doing what needs to be done to survive. They see their favorite rappers and ball players driving around in big SUVs with 20" chrome rims talking about being tough and think that is the life they are to live. These kids do not care about school because noone makes them care. They deal drugs and steal for extra money so they can go to the local store for a new pair of Enyce jeans, or they just kill or rob someone for it. (It has happened hear before) Then these kids start having kids and the whole cycle starts all over and before you know it you have third and fourth generation welfare recipients who know nothing but welfare.
This is the cycle that needs to be broken. Throwing more money or government programs at the situation does nothing to help it because the core of the problem remains the same. You can give a man meat and fish and he can feed his family once, but teach him to hunt and fish and he can feed his family forever. This is where we need to be. Welfare needs to be restructured so that people can own their own homes so they have something tangible to take pride in and take care of. They need to be given the skills necessary so they can get their own jobs to support their own families. They need to learn and cherish the value of an education so that their children will embrace it in order to get a better job and break the cycle of welfare breeding welfare.
OK end of my morning rant.
Wannabe yuppie
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: Madison, WI
Tom, as I see it your criticism against welfare has two parts:
1. People on welfare in your experience have material posessions out of sync with their actual income, and that constitutes widespread abuse of the welfare system.
2. Because of this widespread abuse, we have to metaphorically speaking teach a man to fish rather than give him a fish.
As I have pointed out, the massive availability of credit allows people to live beyond their means and is a totally logical explanation for your observations. Your conclusion is dependent on these observations, and I'm more finding fault with the observations than with the conclusion.
1. People on welfare in your experience have material posessions out of sync with their actual income, and that constitutes widespread abuse of the welfare system.
2. Because of this widespread abuse, we have to metaphorically speaking teach a man to fish rather than give him a fish.
As I have pointed out, the massive availability of credit allows people to live beyond their means and is a totally logical explanation for your observations. Your conclusion is dependent on these observations, and I'm more finding fault with the observations than with the conclusion.
I need sleep...
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,632
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From: NH
Originally Posted by MrFatbooty
Tom, as I see it your criticism against welfare has two parts:
1. People on welfare in your experience have material posessions out of sync with their actual income, and that constitutes widespread abuse of the welfare system.
2. Because of this widespread abuse, we have to metaphorically speaking teach a man to fish rather than give him a fish.
As I have pointed out, the massive availability of credit allows people to live beyond their means and is a totally logical explanation for your observations. Your conclusion is dependent on these observations, and I'm more finding fault with the observations than with the conclusion.
1. People on welfare in your experience have material posessions out of sync with their actual income, and that constitutes widespread abuse of the welfare system.
2. Because of this widespread abuse, we have to metaphorically speaking teach a man to fish rather than give him a fish.
As I have pointed out, the massive availability of credit allows people to live beyond their means and is a totally logical explanation for your observations. Your conclusion is dependent on these observations, and I'm more finding fault with the observations than with the conclusion.
Nowhere did I ever mention abusing welfare. I have puposely stayed out of that argument. I think you need to re-read my original post and see where my criticism of our current welfare state lies.
Wannabe yuppie
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: Madison, WI
Originally Posted by DVPGSR
Mike,
Nowhere did I ever mention abusing welfare. I have puposely stayed out of that argument. I think you need to re-read my original post and see where my criticism of our current welfare state lies.
Nowhere did I ever mention abusing welfare. I have puposely stayed out of that argument. I think you need to re-read my original post and see where my criticism of our current welfare state lies.
I think you and I are looking at the problem from different angles. You see the overall result of people not properly taking advantage of the system and instead just wallowing. You also claim that problem is widespread.
I acknowledge that problem exists, however I feel that the overwhelming majority of people who are being helped by social programs are in fact benefitting from the system.
Also, I'm still grasping for what the overall point that everyone is lobbing at me, other than an abstract distaste for social programs. So if someone wants to consolidate this point of view then maybe I'd be able to more accurately address whatever concerns there are rather than trying to run people's brains in circles.