I was raised Jewish. I have absolutely no connection to Christmas trees whatsoever. I do not relate to them.

I don't have any problem with a nativity scene, or a Christmas tree, or Santa Claus. I have a problem with the government paying for these things or endorsing them. And federal law agrees with me.

"Common sense" is based on common experiences. You and obviously haven't had common experiences when it comes to Christmas, therefore there is no common sense here.

No, Jesus is not considering a prophet by Jews. People who believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, or God, or whatever, are called Christians.

 

>> Do you even care what's right or wrong? It seems all you really want to do is bitch and whine about the ACLU.

Of course I'm bitching about the ACLU because the ACLU is one of the paramount liberal organizations in the U.S. that file lawsuits against anything that stands for or could be interpreted as Christianity. And correct me if I'm wrong but this topic is for discussing if we feel Christianity is under attack. Your question: Do you feel like non-Christians are waging a war on you and your celebration of Christmas? Although you addressed Christians in that question and I am not a Christian, I feel free to answer this question. After all aren't you fighting for freedom of expression/speech? And I feel Christianity is under attack from the ACLU. You feel it's not. That is what the argument is about now. Now quit backing down and getting sidetracked.

>>Why do you think that you can question my patriotism and my morals without an argument?

Where did I question your patriotism and your morals? IF you feel I was calling you a "psycho paranoid liberal" that is your misinterpretation. Sorry if you have a guilty conscience.

>>Kestrel: So, in a way the Christmas tree does represent all the bad things that Christians have done as well.

Wow. That was by far the most simpleminded remarks I have ever heard. The Christmas tree represents "bad things the Christians have done." Okay... Is that why when Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus that they buy a Christmas tree? They want to remember the Inquisitions? They want to remember what the Church did wrong thousands and thousands of years ago? And the Islam moon and stars? Does that stand for terrorism? Does it stand for a suicide bombing every other day? Does it stand for kidnapping, decapitating, mutilating, and murdering innocent people? Kestrel, if you're going to interject in this argument, please don't make yourself sound like a borderline retard. Do it for all of us and finally do it for yourself.


>>I don't have any problem with a nativity scene, or a Christmas tree, or Santa Claus.

So you don't have a problem with K-mart having a "Merry Christmas" sign in the front? The Gov't isn't paying for that but liberals are fighting it. Please explain to me why liberals feel the need to fight stores on why they can't say "Merry Christmas."

 

You seem to be the simple minded one that doesn't seem to remember that Christianity was born from the ashes and on the backs of many different groups around the world. So, after 600 years, we can just forget about the Holocaust, just like you want to forget about the Inquisition?

And since you missed the point....to everything there is always someone that takes objection. Including things you think are innocuous, like Christianity and Christmas trees, which may not be innocuous to everyone (especially groups that have traditionally dominated by Christians, like Native Americans, and Muslims, for example). It is the role of the government to be impartial to any one of these groups, not to endorse one side or the other.

Edit: And since you seem to have nothing but personal attacks in your posts, I'm gonna attach one to mine

because you can't put together a sentence to save your life.

 

Wow Civic, you're like the Iraqi Minister of Information. Baghdad is burning and you're claiming victory.

You said in another thread that you would have to "lower my sense of morality down to a sociopath's to" understand my point of view.

You're denegrating my patriotism every time you call me a psycho paranoid liberal, and you're embarrassing yourself by claiming that you're not. Either you're not enough of a man to stand by your word or you're too much of an idiot to understand what you're saying. I honestly can't tell which.

No, I don't have a problem with a private corporation hanging a display that they feel will appeal to its customers and sell more of their products. I don't know who you're talking about thats suing K-Mart. Can you cite a source? I couldn't find anything about that on google or news.google.

For what its worth, I don't shop at KMart, not because of any religion they choose to acknowledge or ignore, but because their products are mostly crap.

 

I think we've got to be careful to distinguish the two types of actions that are occurring. The first type involves a state actor (the local capitol building, state hall, etc.) and the associated Christmas display. Lawsuits may be brought in those instances because there is a possible Establishment Clause issue.

The K-mart, etc. are private entities and any action that is to be taken against those type actors can only be taken in the form of a boycott or a petition, etc. Any liberal groups that disagree with "Merry Christmas" have a right to express their disapproval, etc. to the company and try to use negative economic effects to force the company into expressing their views. Conservative groups do this all the time when they boycott a Harry Potter movie or a Marilyn Manson concert.

P.S. I also don't care if a store says Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas, but that's probably because neither way offends me. If they use Christmas, I'm not offended b/c I'm a Christian, and if they say holidays I am equally not offended because I don't see it as an assault on Christmas.

 

>>>>>So, after 600 years, we can just forget about the Holocaust, just like you want to forget about the Inquisition?

Wow, it must have went right over your head. Instead of resorting to copying and pasting pictures from websites to try to form some brainless insult, I'll humor you. I proposed why Christians buy Christmas trees. They do not buy Christmas trees to party about past atrocities the religion may have committed. No, they buy the trees to celebrate the birth of Jesus. I am not saying forget anything. I am saying that Christmas trees do not stand for events that the Christian religion may have committed in the past against people's wills. The trees stand for Christmas Day, the birth of Jesus. Get it?

>>>>>Wow Civic, you're like the Iraqi Minister of Information. Baghdad is burning and you're claiming victory.

Again. Resorting to sidetracked off the cuff remarks instead of addressing my points. Benjie, instead of refusing to accept anything that may object to your ideology, why don't you open your mind and accept that there are other possibilities? Honestly, I feel like I'm trying to explain my points to a ham sandwich when you come at me with some idiotic retort like that.

>>>>You said in another thread that you would have to "lower my sense of morality down to a sociopath's to" understand my point of view.

Benjie, I said I would have to "lower my sense of morality down to a sociopath's to" understand the ideology that abortion is okay while capital punishment is wrong. I wasn't intentionally specifying anyone in that statement. I'm sorry if your guilty conscience is working itself up again.

Its like the time you thought I called you a "psycho paranoid liberal." This was my statement: God look at me, I even feel the need to defend my examples or come under attack from psycho paranoid liberals. I did not specify you. I could have been addressing Kestrel, Qtiger, or any other member of this forum. I apologize for your misinterpretation. ...Speaking of paranoia (Now that was intentional)

 

Why don't we take an example like the Confederate flag? People who fly the Confederate flag usually aren't necessarily pro-slavery or pro-racism; they're usually pro individual and pro states rights. Hell maybe they just like how it looks. But other people will take the flag to mean pro-slavery and pro-racism. What your intention is in flying the CSA flag (or putting up a Christmas tree) doesn't nullify all negatives associated with it. Get it?

 

I've responded to your claims about the ACLU repeatedly. At issue is the fact that you don't really care about whats right or wrong, and you don't really feel a moral obligation to defend Christianity. All you're really interested in is attacking anything liberal.

I don't refuse to accept anything that disagrees with my ideology. I read your point of view and found that it is without merit. Further, I find that you cloak your desire to denegrate anything liberal in a phony altruism. You have proven that you don't really understand why federal law is the way that it is, and you don't understand that legal issues are more complex than they first seem. I will be happy to give an example.

You think that the ACLU is a bunch of baby killers because they defended in court a woman who used cocaine while pregnant. Using cocaine while pregnant is incredibly stupid and reckless and, as cocaine is already an illegal drug, she could be punished under existing drug laws. The prosecutor in that case attempted to ban abortion by proxy of reckless endangerment laws.

I see a sad case of a cokehead being used by the prosecutor to try and sneak in a backdoor ban on abortion. You don't bother to look past the sad case of a woman who did a stupid thing. There's a bigger picture and you don't acknowledge it. Maybe you honestly don't understand it.

So why should I accept your ideology over mine? My opinion is more informed than yours.

You said that I was "Resorting to sidetracked off the cuff remarks instead of addressing my points."

You also said "I'm sorry if your guilty conscience is working itself up again."

You don't really think I have a guilty conscience. You're just afraid of owning your words. You're pathetic.

Yeah, lets talk about paranoid for a minute. You, an alleged agnostic, are staunchly defending a religion in which you do not believe against an attack that does not exist. Is that a little embarassing for you? It ought to be.

 

>>>>>>>>I see a sad case of a cokehead being used by the prosecutor to try and sneak in a backdoor ban on abortion. You don't bother to look past the sad case of a woman who did a stupid thing. There's a bigger picture and you don't acknowledge it. Maybe you honestly don't understand it.

How do you know the prosector has the intention of banning abortion by prosecuting a woman who endangered her child? You're creating these crazy assumptions that you cannot back up! Yes I understand the situation at hand here and I see the bigger picture. I see a woman who needs to be prosecuted for endangering her child. The woman was not having an abortion at a licensed clinic. She was smoking crack and had a sick baby as a result. Do you see the difference between Child endangerment and abortion, Benjie? Come on, kiddo, there's a huge difference!

>>>So why should I accept your ideology over mine?

So THIS is the root of our argument? You believe I'm trying to force upon you my ideology? Listen, kiddo, I'm not forcing you to do anything. I don't want you to accept my ideology. Do you believe every discussion/argument that happens that one or both parties are trying to force their ideologies upon the other one? Of course not! You blow my mind with "questionable" statements like that.

>>>>My opinion is more informed than yours.

Cocky. Arrogant. Ignorant. Smug. Overconfident. Brash. The descriptions of you are growing, Benjie. Settle down, you're not that special.

>>>>You don't really think I have a guilty conscience. You're just afraid of owning your words. You're pathetic.

Not surprising. Another post resorting to insults in attempt to form an argument. :sigh: Disappointing actually.

Your last couple of posts, Benjie, are nothing but a pointless web of words. And now you have dragged me into it. Not only are we not discussing the "war on christmas" or any topic of interest anymore; we are throwing insults back and forth.

You indirectly call me paranoid because I feel like Christianity is "under attack." You say there is no attacks on Christmas yet your original proposition was the "Is there a War on Christmas?" Explain to me why you proposed this point if you were going to defy any explanations or arguments in the first place??

 

Word of advice. Take your own advice and settle down yourself. Keep it civil.