Well, endorsement is the legal standard in situations like this. Regardless of whether or not Christianity is considered one religion or many (which is arguing semantics anyway) isn't the point. When a state puts up solely Christian symbols, icons, displays, etc. it is essentially saying that these are the people we care about and all you other a-holes can eat it.

That's why context matters. Like in your menorah example - if the menorah was involved in an overall winter holiday display (some lights, a nativity scene, etc.) it would be ok because it's part of an overall display celebrating the winter holiday (note a state doesn't have to include every religion possible). However, if the local capitol's display only had a crapload of menorah/Hannukah symbols, with no lights, snowmen, etc. the state is showing it is endorsing/approving of solely Judaism.

 

I still see the major problem being the people who complain. When I see a decorative scene I see it as people having fun admist all the day by day crap they deal with for public entertainment and joyfulness. I see it as people trying to share happiness the best way they know how (most likely the way they grew up) and honestly, anyone who sees a decorated shrub or a bunch of candles as an attack on their religion is, in my opinion, beyond phycological help.

 

Are you talking about private displays or state displays?

 

any display.

honestly it is just people trying to do something nice. why read so far into it and ruin it? the displays are for everyone to enjoy, enjoy them, by complaining they are only excluding themselves

 

Would you be okay with neonazis making a publicly funded "we love Hitler" display? Because when it comes to free speech, there's no difference between an inflatable Hitler and a Christmas tree.

 

Irregardless if any aspects of Christianity make it into state/federal levels. Honestly, is putting "Merry Christmas" letters on a public middle school an intentional endorsement or establishment of religion? Absolutely not. It is ACLU's frivolous lawsuits that make it into courtrooms and waste the judges' and the lawyers' times that astound me!

Benjamin, regarding your question on why I'm defending Christianity because I'm agnostic -- Yes I'm agnostic but I would defend anything that is under such high amounts of fire from the ACLU -- especially frivolously! There cause for attacks are baseless. Some of them? Okay. Most of them? Questionable/Frivolous.

Sherwood is right. Sensitivity is at an all time high in America if a Jew sees a Christmas tree on someone's property or "Merry Christmas" on public property and complains to his local lawmakers. That was just an example -- I am not trying to single out any particular religion. ... God look at me, I even feel the need to defend my examples or come under attack from psycho paranoid liberals. My family has a "Merry Christmas" banner on the front of our house... I wouldn't be surprised to see a protesting crowd in front of our house in the near future the way things are going.

EDIT: I just read Qtiger's outrageous post. There is absolutely no comparison between an inflatable Hitler and a Christmas tree. Did a Christmass tree committ mass murder on the Jews? qtiger, your remarks make you sound like a complete fool. Good job.

 

Yes, it is an intentional endorsement of Christianity. How can you possibly think that "Merry Christmas" doesn't endorse the holiday?

Do you even care whats right or wrong? It seems all you really want to do is bitch and whine about the ACLU.

For the fiftieth time, the ACLU is not attacking Christianity. Your premise is false and your conclusion invalid.

Thats really a shame that no one has ever asked you to justify your position before. Why would you think that your opinion is somehow above reproach? Why do you think that you can question my patriotism and my morals without an argument? Haven't you ever been disagreed with before?

Did the government pay for the banner? If not, don't sweat it.

Do you honestly not see the distinction between government hanging a Christmas banner on town hall and your parents hanging on on the house?

 

Well if you really want to get into it.... Christianity has had a hand in destroying native cultures around the world and in such things like the Inquisition, and in silencing critics like Galileo and Copernicus. So, in a way the Christmas tree does represent all the bad things that Christians have done as well.

Edit: And as far as the original topic goes, I could really care less if someone says Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays.

 

yes there is a difference, maybe not in free speech, but thats not what i'm refering to here.

the problem is people today need things to be so litteral that they dont take the time to analyze peoples reasoning

a christmas tree symbolizes something we can all relate to, it wasnt always connected directly to christmas, it along with other tradtitions like santa claus are peoples own response to the general feeling of the holidays.

i will admit nativity scenes push things far out of this realm and i honestly agree with you on this matter, they should stay out of the public domain. BUT when you start to get all riled up about someone displaying something so unharmful as a tree or santa or a saying that is supposed to bring up memories of good times that is where i draw a line based on good old common sense.


side note:

isn't jesus considered a prophet in the jewish faith? isn't it borderline sacreligious to complain about something that your own faith you are using as leverage believes in?

:note: when i say your i am talking in general, not to one specific person, this is how i word things and apologize.

 

But the relevant standard here is free speech.

If you're talking about a general pine tree, then maybe it could be associated with mountains and winter. But I certainly know people who did not grow up with a Christmas tree in their living room (and yes, most of these people were Muslim or Jewish or Hindi). For them, the Christmas tree represents nothing.

I'll agree that maybe people need better hobbies if they're going to sue over a Christmas tree. But it is certainly their right to make sure that no faith is overly represented by the government

And, as far as the common sense thing goes, intuition and common sense is often wrong. Remember that thread on the plane on the conveyor belt? Intuition gives you the wrong answer. That's why we have laws....so we're not at the mercy of someone's "common sense."


Judaism does not recognize Jesus as a prophet.