jaje

sorry...Toyota has always been behind Honda in engine technology...well b/c Honda is an engine company and makes more engines than any other company in the world

Toyota has hybrids...well Honda has them too...Toyota is at least 4x bigger than Honda and has 6x more money (you'd expect Toyota to be the leading edge of engine technology for their cars - but they aren't).

2 Years ago the Camrys 3.0 v6 engine made 190 hp after SAE corrections and Honda's 3.0 v6 engine made 232...the Celica GTS engine was Toyotas first true variable valve timing engine (10 years after Honda pioneered this effort) but Toyota did not design that engine - Yamaha did.

Now let's get into advanced powertrains:
Honda has a clean diesel (in fact the first diesel to use a cat converter to effectively eliminate NOX emissions without a seperate tank of urea sprayed into it)

Honda will have the first production Fuel Cell car and already has the 2 generation model tested for use

Honda has a new VTEC engine coming out that increases fuel economy and power in the next year by nearly 13%

Honda has patented with RITE a process to increase ethanol yields from cellulose chemical reactions making greater quantities and they will have ethanol powered cars in Brazil next year

Honda is in advanced development of HCCI - a gasoline engine that uses compression ignition like a diesel

In fact it's the opposite...Toyota often plays catch up to Honda (Toyota has a lot of money to do so)...recall all the 2.2 liter and 3.0 liter engine sludge problems Toyota had?...reason was that Honda was going to introduce the first 50 state ULEV engines and Toyota wanted to do it quickly - so they raised the temperatures on the engine (hotter engines burn cleaner) without redesigned the internal cooling, thus the oil sludging and siezed engines.

Ochdx

More is not necessary better.

Toyota's hybrids are more advanced and available in more models. Honda's hybrids are limited, and struggling.


Thats was 2 years ago. Time's are changing, and the new Camry motor is way more efficient and powerful than Accord motor, and motors in Acura models are pathetic when compared to motors in Lexus models. This is disappointing me very much, this is not how Honda used to be. Remember when TL-S debuted with 260hp V6? There was nothing that came even close.

All these technologies are great, but right now they are nothing but mere speculations and fancy presentation. Right now Toyota has better, more efficient and more powerful cars, and makes more sales. I appreicate Honda's research into new technologies, but consumers want powerful, efficient engines, and they want them NOW, not 10 years later.

Remember transmission problem across Honda/Acura's entire V6 lineup? We can poke fingers all day long, but in the end of the day every manufacturer goofs up once in a while.

lexusis350

Both have their advantages.

Toyota has propaganda that they are reliable, many ppl fall for this propaganda.
Toyota's name is now known for reliablity when Honda is actually more reliable.

My parent's Acura has far less replacements than my Toyota, my Toyota replaced brakes, tires, light bulbs, battery.

Honda's are more powerful, 3.7 V6 with 300 hp > 3.5 V6 with 270 hp
Accord Hybrid = 255 hp > Camry Hybrid = 192 hp

Troopa-R

Been enjoying the lexusis300 fun over the board over the last month, but I guess it's time to be serious again...

Okay, Toyota has more hybirds available, but the underlying hybrid technology is different. It's not a case of being more advanced, it's a completely different approach to hybrid technology.

Except the original issue was engine technology, not any general quality issue. You were arguing Toyota's superior engine technology. jae refuted it and you decided to throw out the unrelated tranny issue to change the issue and in general, Honda seem to be on top of Toyota in engine technology. And in case you bring up the lack of V8s (because you have in the past), that Honda doesn't have a V8 doesn't mean it doesn't have the the know how or ability to (because God knows it has plenty of experience from motorsport building V8s)

And in the future, if someone brings up Toyota sludge, remind them of the CR-V engine fires. And unlike Toyota, which at least has the secret warranty, Honda has just shifted blame to dealer error and refuses to address it.

Ochdx

Well, first of all, I agree 100% that in the past Honda's engines were superior to Toyotas, and hell, not only Toyotas, but well ahead of everyone else, besides high dollar limited cars like Porsche, Ferrari, etc.

However times change. Right now, right this moment, Honda is way behind. They can no longer brag that they have the highest HP/L output, they can no longer brag that they have the most powerful cars in their respective classes, they can no longer claim that their engines are pinnacles of technology (wheres direct injection, how come no DOHC V6?). And most of all, their reliability reputation has been shattered after they proved incompetent to properly address the whole transmission fiasco. At least Toyota's sludge problems can be easily prevented by regular oil changes.

jaje

Making a broad and blanket statement like "advancing their engine techologies, and Honda better start catching up soon" is extremely hard to prove and you have to have proof across the entire lineup - not picking and choosing one off comparisons based on brand new models versus 3-4 year old Honda models

Simply using logic goes the other way. Honda makes all sorts of engines from gasoline & hybrid gasoline, diesel, ethanol, hydrogen, electric, appliance/multi purpose gas, marine, jet engines (soon piston airplane engines), etc. Sorry but the breadth of investment and focus would bring Honda economies of scale in research across such a wide variety of research platforms.

Toyota did a better job of marketing their Prius hybrids (it was also much more practical than the Insight) - Toyota also smartly let it run on electric when moving slowly - a function that others can copy.

So you pick and choose comparisons (including your blanket statement that Honda is catching up on Toyota's engine technology)

here's one example - 2007 Camry I4 versus the 2007 Accord I4 (Camry is a brand new model changeover and the Accord is in its 5th year). If Toyota is ahead of Honda then this engine in the new model Camry should be much more powerful.

Engine Performance (both 2.4 liter I4):
Horsepower, SAE @ RPM
2007 Honda Accord I4: 166@5500
2007 Toyota Camry I4: 158@5700

Max. Torque, lb-ft @ RPM
2007 Honda Accord I4: 160@4500
2007 Toyota Camry I4: 161@4000

Funny thing was the Camry had a 190hp 3.0 v6 until this new model where Honda had a 240 hp 3.0 v6.

Engine Performance:

Horsepower, SAE @ RPM
2007 Honda Accord (3.0 liter) V6: 244@5500
2007 Toyota Camry (3.5 liter) V6: 268@5700

2007 Acura TL V6 (3.2 liter): 258@6200
2007 Acura TL V6 (3.5 liter): 286@6200

2007 Lexus ES 350 V6 (3.5 liter): 272@6200
2007 Lexus IS 350 V6 (3.5 liter): 306@? (Lexus Website is taking a crap)

Max. Torque, lb-ft @ RPM
2007 Honda Accord V6 (3.0 liter): 211@4500
2007 Toyota Camry V6 (3.5 liter): 248@4000

2007 Acura TL V6 (3.2 liter): 233@5000
2007 Acura TL V6 (3.5 liter): 256@5000

2007 Lexus ES 350 V6 (3.5 liter): 254@4700
2007 Lesux IS 350 V6 (3.5 liter): ? (Lexus Website is taking a crap)

Well advanced new technologies do not get invented in a 2 year time frame...it takes years of dedication and passion to push the envelope...Honda is at the forefront and spends more total $$ on R&D than any other automaker (in fact Honda a perennial top 10 company in R&D - it's closest competitors are pharmaceutical companies)

Toyota spends its money on expansion and domination and it shows as they are growing faster than any other automaker and soon to be #1 in the world.

Honda issued a 100k transferrable warranty to every car with this issue...Toyota did repairs only if the owner b!tched enough and threatened to bring legal action.

Conclusion: So Toyota just introduces new models with stronger V6s (I really like the IS 250). Good for them and good for us. Does that mean Honda is way behind or needs to catch up to Toyota's better engines? NO - Honda has new engines coming down the line soon. Advanced VTEC and engines that Toyota doesn't even have in the works (Toyota is too big of an 800lb Gorilla to have put all its eggs in the Hybrid basket).

jaje

Really...prove it! Which mfgr has the highest resale value? Oops Honda. Somehow the Accord is on that list and the Camry is not.

Here's the list for those who don't want to follow the link (Note Honda and Toyota each have 3 cars on that list):
Top 10 High Resale Value Vehicles
1. Mini Cooper
2. Honda Accord
3. Toyota Avalon
4. Porsche 911 Carrera
5. Acura TL
6. Mercedes-Benz CL-Class
7. Honda Odyssey
8. Land Rover Range Rover Sport
9. Toyota Sequoia
10. Toyota Tundra

Oh...BTW, my old neighbor is a certified Toyota mechanic for a dealer. The oil sludge problem still rears its ugly head even with on time oil changes as the engine sludge still builds up over time and changing the oil will do little to the areas with the blocked passages.

Ochdx

You are completely failing to see my point. Honda used to be THE BEST engine manufacturer around. Their engines used to be generations ahead of their competition, but lately they gotten lazy and made pretty much ZERO progress. They are yet to match the performance of their very own NSX, which is a fifteen year old design. But they dropped the ball, and their current line up is rather dull, compared not only to Toyota, but to Nissan, BMW, Audi, MB. Even GM and Ford caught up. And Acura's current line up is fairly fresh, and I doubt if there are any dramatic changes coming in the near future. GS350 is better than RL, IS350 is better than TL/TL-S, IS250 is better than TSX. Thats not even to mention that Lexus has hybrids and V8's. And once again, both line ups are pretty fresh, so Lexus will have this advantage for another 3-4 years.

I could agree with you that comparing current Accord V6 to current Camry V6 isn't exactly fair, as the Accord is pretty old, but what are the chances that the next Accord will have more than 268hp and step on TL's toes?

Where's that 50hp lead that Honda once had over their competition?

Ochdx

Do you really think this is adequate? Basically what Honda is doing, they are replacing failed transmissions with the same faulty units, instead of solving the problem. These replacement units are doomed to fail again and again, and there are people that go throught replacement transmissions within the 100k period, and after the 100k period is over you're out of luck. Do you really think transmission failtures are acceptable after 100k? I expect transmission to last 250k, something that is very common with Lexus vehicles.

jaje

So let's weigh this issue...Honda issues a 100k warranty for defective transmissions (including the replacement one), Toyota does nothing for it's oil sludge problems unless the owner makes a big deal out of it. So at 100k miles the Honda owner may have had a transmission replaced but with little drama and on Honda's dime. The Toyota owner has a failed engine and no recourse unless they get really mean with the dealer. Now that's what I call customer support!