Straight from horses mouth....interesting read
HC Racer H5
Joined: May 2000
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From: KCK
Originally posted by Surf Green
Wrong. The 1 out of 10 rating has nothing to do with GreenHouse emissions. The Poor rating comes from the particulate emissions, of which the blame rest fully on the poor fuel available in the United States. If we were to be as scrutinizing with the Insight, or other Hybrids, we should add a couple hundred pounds of waste batteries as part of their toxic emissions.
Wrong. The 1 out of 10 rating has nothing to do with GreenHouse emissions. The Poor rating comes from the particulate emissions, of which the blame rest fully on the poor fuel available in the United States. If we were to be as scrutinizing with the Insight, or other Hybrids, we should add a couple hundred pounds of waste batteries as part of their toxic emissions.
HC Racer H5
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,261
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From: KCK
Originally posted by CCM591
Probably do, but gassers produce particulate matter (PM) too...is that a concern? Do you know of any studies that exhonerate gassers' cancer concerns?
First of all, both of my vehicles are diesels (one of which is a TDI), so I'll admit to a bias here. However, I have to challenge some of what I consider misconceptions about diesel emissions (I've been an environmental professional for over 20 years).
Point: Diesel emissions cause cancer.
Counterpoint: Assays of gasoline and diesel PM and semi-volatile organic compounds demonstrate that gasoline emissions show a positive response in 5 of 6 categories of mutagenicity, DNA damage, chromasomal damage. Diesel emissions showed a positive response in 2 of 6 categories.
Source: In Vitro Genotoxicity of Gasoline and Diesel Engine Vehicle Exhaust Particulate and Semi-Volatile Organic Compound Materials
Presented at the 2002 DEER Conference
For cytotoxicity, high emitting gasoline engines demonstrated a much higher response than even old, high emitting diesel engines. (That's why I try to avoid following old/poorly maintained GASSERS on the road!) "Normal" emitting gas and diesel engines exhibited essentially the same cytotoxicity.
Source:
COMPARATIVE TOXICITY OF COMBINED PARTICLE AND SEMI-VOLATILE ORGANIC FRACTIONS OF GASOLINE AND DIESEL EMISSIONS
Presented at the 2002 DEER Conference
Gasoline engines emit approximately ONE ORDER OF MAGNITUDE more benzene (a known carcinogen) than a comparable diesel engine (and this doesn't even take into account fugitive benzene emissions from gasoline fuel transfer).
Gasoline engines emit numerically more PM and more polycyclic aromatic compounds (many of which are considered carcinogenic) than equivalent diesels under many real-world driving conditions.
Most harmful gaseous emissions were lower for diesel.
Source:
Environmental and Health Impact From Modern Cars
May 2002
Point: Diesels cause "smog".
Counterpoint: The ozone forming potential was considerably lower for diesel cars, i.e., roughly one order of magnitude lower than for petrol cars. This is mainly due to the low level of HC emissions for diesel cars compared to petrol cars. Should the evaporative emissions have been taken into account, the relative differences would have been even greater.
Source:
Environmental and Health Impact From Modern Cars
May 2002
Gasoline exhaust and gasoline vapor account for ~80 percent of ambient NMHC in on-road samples and at regional air monitoring locations suggesting that gasoline emissions are responsible for the majority of ozone found in the SoCAB.
Source:
DOE’s Studies of Weekday/Weekend Ozone Pollution in Southern California
Presented at 2002 DEER Conference
Point: Fuel Cells are the most efficient energy converters known.
Counterpoint:
...the ranking between drive systems is (with one exception) the same independent of motor fuel type, namely:
-hybrid with diesel-engine
-hybrid with fuel cell
-direct operation with fuel cell
-hybrid with otto-engine
-conventional diesel-engine
-(hybrid with direct-methanol fuel cell)
-conventional otto-engine.
(This is taking the energy required for fuel production into account.)
Source:
Well-to-Wheel Efficiency For Alternative Fuels From Natural Gas or Biomass
October 2001
Which brings up one more point (or counterpoint): why are hybrids only mentioned with gas engines, as if diesels with hybrid drive trains are mutually exclusive? If a VW Lupo with a 1.2 liter TDI and a more or less conventional transmission can achieve nearly 100 mpg (U.S.) in its "around the world in 80 days" tour, I contend that a diesel hybrid Civic would get significantly better fuel mileage than an equivalent gasoline-hybrid Civic!
Probably do, but gassers produce particulate matter (PM) too...is that a concern? Do you know of any studies that exhonerate gassers' cancer concerns?
First of all, both of my vehicles are diesels (one of which is a TDI), so I'll admit to a bias here. However, I have to challenge some of what I consider misconceptions about diesel emissions (I've been an environmental professional for over 20 years).
Point: Diesel emissions cause cancer.
Counterpoint: Assays of gasoline and diesel PM and semi-volatile organic compounds demonstrate that gasoline emissions show a positive response in 5 of 6 categories of mutagenicity, DNA damage, chromasomal damage. Diesel emissions showed a positive response in 2 of 6 categories.
Source: In Vitro Genotoxicity of Gasoline and Diesel Engine Vehicle Exhaust Particulate and Semi-Volatile Organic Compound Materials
Presented at the 2002 DEER Conference
For cytotoxicity, high emitting gasoline engines demonstrated a much higher response than even old, high emitting diesel engines. (That's why I try to avoid following old/poorly maintained GASSERS on the road!) "Normal" emitting gas and diesel engines exhibited essentially the same cytotoxicity.
Source:
COMPARATIVE TOXICITY OF COMBINED PARTICLE AND SEMI-VOLATILE ORGANIC FRACTIONS OF GASOLINE AND DIESEL EMISSIONS
Presented at the 2002 DEER Conference
Gasoline engines emit approximately ONE ORDER OF MAGNITUDE more benzene (a known carcinogen) than a comparable diesel engine (and this doesn't even take into account fugitive benzene emissions from gasoline fuel transfer).
Gasoline engines emit numerically more PM and more polycyclic aromatic compounds (many of which are considered carcinogenic) than equivalent diesels under many real-world driving conditions.
Most harmful gaseous emissions were lower for diesel.
Source:
Environmental and Health Impact From Modern Cars
May 2002
Point: Diesels cause "smog".
Counterpoint: The ozone forming potential was considerably lower for diesel cars, i.e., roughly one order of magnitude lower than for petrol cars. This is mainly due to the low level of HC emissions for diesel cars compared to petrol cars. Should the evaporative emissions have been taken into account, the relative differences would have been even greater.
Source:
Environmental and Health Impact From Modern Cars
May 2002
Gasoline exhaust and gasoline vapor account for ~80 percent of ambient NMHC in on-road samples and at regional air monitoring locations suggesting that gasoline emissions are responsible for the majority of ozone found in the SoCAB.
Source:
DOE’s Studies of Weekday/Weekend Ozone Pollution in Southern California
Presented at 2002 DEER Conference
Point: Fuel Cells are the most efficient energy converters known.
Counterpoint:
...the ranking between drive systems is (with one exception) the same independent of motor fuel type, namely:
-hybrid with diesel-engine
-hybrid with fuel cell
-direct operation with fuel cell
-hybrid with otto-engine
-conventional diesel-engine
-(hybrid with direct-methanol fuel cell)
-conventional otto-engine.
(This is taking the energy required for fuel production into account.)
Source:
Well-to-Wheel Efficiency For Alternative Fuels From Natural Gas or Biomass
October 2001
Which brings up one more point (or counterpoint): why are hybrids only mentioned with gas engines, as if diesels with hybrid drive trains are mutually exclusive? If a VW Lupo with a 1.2 liter TDI and a more or less conventional transmission can achieve nearly 100 mpg (U.S.) in its "around the world in 80 days" tour, I contend that a diesel hybrid Civic would get significantly better fuel mileage than an equivalent gasoline-hybrid Civic!
yes i too avoid old gassers b/c they pollute like mad...but the emissions control technology has blossomed...even gm can get ulev out of its aging 3.8 pushrod v6...significantly less than the tdi
i guess pound for pound of pollution you may have a point that gassers may be as bad a polluter...but it the diesel would emit more per engine than the gasser...like you'd have to have 7 civic hybrid sulevs running at the same time as one tdi to emit the same amount of pollution...i'd pick the hybrid b/c it's plainly better
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2002
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Originally posted by More&Faster
the reason i said that a TDI can be brought to gsr territory, is because i know of TDIs that run 15s in the quarter. ya they have about $1000 worth of mods but its possible, thats all im saying. with a chip, larger injectors, an intake and exhaust, im pretty sure theyre up there. they could certainly be competive in the 1/8th because of theyre strong low end.
the reason i said that a TDI can be brought to gsr territory, is because i know of TDIs that run 15s in the quarter. ya they have about $1000 worth of mods but its possible, thats all im saying. with a chip, larger injectors, an intake and exhaust, im pretty sure theyre up there. they could certainly be competive in the 1/8th because of theyre strong low end.
Of course it's a good idea to put in a stronger clutch to deal with the 270+ ft/lbs of torque, but not a neccesity.
AccordPower24
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
From: West Virginia
I find it somewhat strange that one guy started the "Diesel" arguement... then disappeared... then a new guy came... he disappeared... then another new guy. Perhaps we're all just one in the same, but maturing each time?
My veiw is this. Fuel Cells have some time to go. Until then, for the US market, Hybrids is the way to go. For the European market, Diesel is the way to go. Gas is cheap here, the public is stupid and doesn't like diesel, and there is definately some control of the gov't by oil makers. Hell, Bush is from Texas. (I'm not trying to discrimate here, I voted for the guy.) Also, there is no strong diesel network in the US. Europe is the opposite. Gas is very expensive there (diesel isn't), there is no bad connotation of diesel, and they have the network. I think we're ready for a hybrid sports car. The 'hybrid' idea needs a boost, and giving it a sporty image can definately help (those 70hp Insights aren't). NSX is New Sports Experiment, and its a new decade (millenium for that fact), we're ready for a new sports experiment.
My veiw is this. Fuel Cells have some time to go. Until then, for the US market, Hybrids is the way to go. For the European market, Diesel is the way to go. Gas is cheap here, the public is stupid and doesn't like diesel, and there is definately some control of the gov't by oil makers. Hell, Bush is from Texas. (I'm not trying to discrimate here, I voted for the guy.) Also, there is no strong diesel network in the US. Europe is the opposite. Gas is very expensive there (diesel isn't), there is no bad connotation of diesel, and they have the network. I think we're ready for a hybrid sports car. The 'hybrid' idea needs a boost, and giving it a sporty image can definately help (those 70hp Insights aren't). NSX is New Sports Experiment, and its a new decade (millenium for that fact), we're ready for a new sports experiment.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6
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Originally posted by LuckyDog
I find it somewhat strange that one guy started the "Diesel" arguement... then disappeared... then a new guy came... he disappeared... then another new guy. Perhaps we're all just one in the same, but maturing each time?
Also, there is no strong diesel network in the US. Europe is the opposite. Gas is very expensive there (diesel isn't), there is no bad connotation of diesel, and they have the network.
I find it somewhat strange that one guy started the "Diesel" arguement... then disappeared... then a new guy came... he disappeared... then another new guy. Perhaps we're all just one in the same, but maturing each time?
Also, there is no strong diesel network in the US. Europe is the opposite. Gas is very expensive there (diesel isn't), there is no bad connotation of diesel, and they have the network.
BTW, your idea that there is "no strong diesel network in the US" is completely unfounded, and I'd like to know what gave you that idea. What do you think the legions of heavy trucks that drive into every corner of the US burn?
As opposed to Europe, you think that diesel is expensive and hard to find here? Diesel fuel in Europe, while much cheaper than gasoline per litre, is still more expensive than ours. One out of every three fuel stations in the US carries diesel fuel. Not bad for an apparently niche market, eh?
HC Racer H5
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,261
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From: KCK
Originally posted by Pseudobrit
The guy who started the diesel argument linked in one or more VW/TDI forums. I don't know him, but I've known Tim (Surf Green) for a long time and have met him a few times (small world, eh?).
BTW, your idea that there is "no strong diesel network in the US" is completely unfounded, and I'd like to know what gave you that idea. What do you think the legions of heavy trucks that drive into every corner of the US burn?
As opposed to Europe, you think that diesel is expensive and hard to find here? Diesel fuel in Europe, while much cheaper than gasoline per litre, is still more expensive than ours. One out of every three fuel stations in the US carries diesel fuel. Not bad for an apparently niche market, eh?
The guy who started the diesel argument linked in one or more VW/TDI forums. I don't know him, but I've known Tim (Surf Green) for a long time and have met him a few times (small world, eh?).
BTW, your idea that there is "no strong diesel network in the US" is completely unfounded, and I'd like to know what gave you that idea. What do you think the legions of heavy trucks that drive into every corner of the US burn?
As opposed to Europe, you think that diesel is expensive and hard to find here? Diesel fuel in Europe, while much cheaper than gasoline per litre, is still more expensive than ours. One out of every three fuel stations in the US carries diesel fuel. Not bad for an apparently niche market, eh?
i'm not knocking diesels...the make good gas mileage have a higher flashpoint making them safer to store than gasoline...however they are dirtier than today's gasoline engines...make the "otto" cycle cleaner engine more efficient until fuel cells finally make it here and then breath cleaner air
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1
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From: Tooele, UT
<but b/c a tdi is so slow i don't have problem getting away from <them anyway
TRY to pass my VW TDi on the freeway.... Go ahead, TRY.
Forget about even TRYING if we are climbing a steep grade... No Contest. You won't even be close.
Stoplight gran prix, well, I get low 2.2 sec 60 ft times on STOCK economy tires and wheels, and about 400 bucks in mods.
THere is a guy in the UK with a 14.2 second 1.9 Tdi. Still gets 40 MPG.
If I want low emissions I will ride a bicycle.
Sure you can get a junkyard turbo, but will it run well on pump gas? Will it get over 20 MPG driving 50 mph? (I get 40 driving 90+ everyday) Will it last 500,000 miles? Will it have a warranty?
Do you shift your car at 6k+ rpm all day? What happens to your economy then? I drive my car hard all the time and get 40 mpg. It sure is fun.
Before my Golf, I had a H23a Prelude '92, an 88 CRX Si before that, and an '84 CRX Before that. The Prelude lasted 8 years and 200k before I sold it for the VW, but used a quart every 4-600 miles. Shift any of these hondas below 4000 rpm and its a dog. But that's how most people drive.
I can say without qualification that my VW is the most fun car I have EVER owned. Its no Vette or NSX but damn is it fun. A GSR or Civic Si is limp-wristed as hell unless you drive it like you stole it revving the pee out of it, then it's just OK.
<Flame shield on>
It is the crappy fuel we have here that is holding back the diesels. Don't count them out yet.
Hybrids, eh.... Ever heard of Conservation of Energy? The battery charging and discharging in a hybrid is not 100% efficient... not even close. The fuel economy is achieved by making the car little more than a tin can with wheels. My VW is SOLID as a tank (but doesn't feel heavy) and feels like a real car not a torqueless rollerskate.
TRY to pass my VW TDi on the freeway.... Go ahead, TRY.
Forget about even TRYING if we are climbing a steep grade... No Contest. You won't even be close.
Stoplight gran prix, well, I get low 2.2 sec 60 ft times on STOCK economy tires and wheels, and about 400 bucks in mods.
THere is a guy in the UK with a 14.2 second 1.9 Tdi. Still gets 40 MPG.
If I want low emissions I will ride a bicycle.
Sure you can get a junkyard turbo, but will it run well on pump gas? Will it get over 20 MPG driving 50 mph? (I get 40 driving 90+ everyday) Will it last 500,000 miles? Will it have a warranty?
Do you shift your car at 6k+ rpm all day? What happens to your economy then? I drive my car hard all the time and get 40 mpg. It sure is fun.
Before my Golf, I had a H23a Prelude '92, an 88 CRX Si before that, and an '84 CRX Before that. The Prelude lasted 8 years and 200k before I sold it for the VW, but used a quart every 4-600 miles. Shift any of these hondas below 4000 rpm and its a dog. But that's how most people drive.
I can say without qualification that my VW is the most fun car I have EVER owned. Its no Vette or NSX but damn is it fun. A GSR or Civic Si is limp-wristed as hell unless you drive it like you stole it revving the pee out of it, then it's just OK.
<Flame shield on>
It is the crappy fuel we have here that is holding back the diesels. Don't count them out yet.
Hybrids, eh.... Ever heard of Conservation of Energy? The battery charging and discharging in a hybrid is not 100% efficient... not even close. The fuel economy is achieved by making the car little more than a tin can with wheels. My VW is SOLID as a tank (but doesn't feel heavy) and feels like a real car not a torqueless rollerskate.
lots and lots of fail
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 23,004
Likes: 1
From: Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeetroit
Originally posted by KERMA
Hybrids, eh.... Ever heard of Conservation of Energy? The battery charging and discharging in a hybrid is not 100% efficient... not even close. The fuel economy is achieved by making the car little more than a tin can with wheels.
Hybrids, eh.... Ever heard of Conservation of Energy? The battery charging and discharging in a hybrid is not 100% efficient... not even close. The fuel economy is achieved by making the car little more than a tin can with wheels.
Civic Hybrid a tin can on wheels? I have a sneaky suspicion it rides alot more comfortably and better than your TDI, from what I've read (that it is more comfortable and rides better than the Civic EX).
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,523
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From: Frisco, Texas
Originally posted by 02RSXTYPES
I don't give a damn about the rest of your post, but this is incorrect. The Hybrid recharges its batteries when decelerating/braking...If you knew what the Conservation of Energy WAS, you'd know that when something loses energy, something else gains it. and vice versa. That has little to do with this discussion at all. CoE is used in braking and decelling 100%, as it is used in acceling since it uses battery power to make the wheels rotate faster.
Civic Hybrid a tin can on wheels? I have a sneaky suspicion it rides alot more comfortably and better than your TDI, from what I've read (that it is more comfortable and rides better than the Civic EX).
I don't give a damn about the rest of your post, but this is incorrect. The Hybrid recharges its batteries when decelerating/braking...If you knew what the Conservation of Energy WAS, you'd know that when something loses energy, something else gains it. and vice versa. That has little to do with this discussion at all. CoE is used in braking and decelling 100%, as it is used in acceling since it uses battery power to make the wheels rotate faster.
Civic Hybrid a tin can on wheels? I have a sneaky suspicion it rides alot more comfortably and better than your TDI, from what I've read (that it is more comfortable and rides better than the Civic EX).
TRY to pass my VW TDi on the freeway.... Go ahead, TRY.
KERMA wtf is that about man?
lots and lots of fail
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 23,004
Likes: 1
From: Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeetroit
Originally posted by yianni64
since you said what i was about to say, lets touch on.....
TRY to pass my VW TDi on the freeway.... Go ahead, TRY.
KERMA wtf is that about man?
since you said what i was about to say, lets touch on.....
TRY to pass my VW TDi on the freeway.... Go ahead, TRY.
KERMA wtf is that about man?
) about everything BUT performance.