yianni64

I guess people dont associate perfomance and economy in the same car. Let the NSX (with dualnote/dn-x powertrain) change that

fastball

Hmmmm, you're doing 70 in front of me, I come up behind you, slow down, when the lane to the left clears, I down shift from fifth to third, hit VTEC at about 6000, and you see nothing but my tail lamps. YOU go from fifth to third, and I don't even want to know what happens to your engine. And all I have is a K&N and a CAI.

jaje

the diesel is not more efficient than a hybrid (any interal combustible engine is inherently flawed b/c of the loss of heat energy) and your diesel pollutes much more than the hybrid

as for performance and torqueless...i guess you can't figure out what the difference between hp/torque/gearing is and why higher redline torque is better for acceleration that doesn't involve the short stoplight drag races

Pseudobrit

LOL "biodiesel hybrid" -- you really have no idea what biodiesel is, do you? A diesel hybrid would be a biodiesel hybrid and vice versa.

Diesel fuel (No.2) is dirtier in our nation because standards for fuel quality are lower and not adhered to at all. Even "premium" diesel pumps have been found to be mislabeled in many cases. With stricter standards and more stringent controls, diesel engines can run more effective (and delicate) catalysts. As it stands, the trucking lobby blocks anything but the cheapest sludge from seeing the tanks.

BTW, to show you how meaningless those gov't 1-10 ratings are, check out the big SUVs (Escalade, Expedition, Suburban, etc.). They are all allegedly less polluting than a TDI -- I can give you a few good reasons why this is impossible.

What we need in the short term are ethanol & biodiesel. Literally homegrown energy. Renewable too -- hands off Alaska even!

jaje

when i mention biodiesel hybrid i'm talking about a biodiesel powered engine with something similar to a honda hybrid (ima) powertrain...like the vw diesel hybrid concept in europe...i think you are referring to the fuel as a hybrid solution such as gasoline mixed with ethanol

yes i agree that an suv pollutes more than a much smaller diesel engine due to the fact that the big gasser has to burn 5-6 times more fuel than the diesel would leading to it being more harmful...but engines of similar size would burn the same amount of fuel as the diesel while polluting less...though the diesel may get more mpg...my 2k1 civic gets on average 34mpg with my wifes heavy foot not bad for a gasser...the best part its ulev certified and i feel that is a worthy sacrifice of a little less mpg

i'd also like to keep hands off alaska but also keep the air cleaner and in america diesels just aren't as clean as they are in europe...there they should go the way of the diesel hybrid before fuel cells become available...just in america we have such a short time before these cars will become more available why spend so much money switching over to diesel (auto mfgrs would have to redesign new engines b/c you just can't take a gasser and make it a diesel [like hte old oldsmobile diesels that were some of the worst cars around], especially ones that don't have the engines available...hardly any mfgr has them except the large v8 diesels that i constantly choke from when following them)...i'm talking in total society cost...kind of a maximazation of aggregate wealth economics game-theory (find the most efficient solution and get there with as little effort in order to further support the most efficient solution)...fact is nothing in life is as easy as its proponents say

Pseudobrit

There's so much wrong information and prejudiced opinion presented as fact and assumed in your statements I just don't know where to start...

Okay, a few points to clarify here: my car is a diesel. It is also a biodiesel. It came that way from the factory. There is no distinction or modifications needed to run biodiesel. The two are synonymous. Any car or truck that burns petrodiesel can burn biodiesel. Get it??

It's a natural renewable resource that can be grown domestically. Which is also the advantage to pursuing pure ethanol-fired engines.

ULEV certification means nothing. SUVs are ULEV while getting 10mpg.

A TDI engine emits 20% less greenhouse gasses than a gasoline engine. Less evaporative emissions, less hydrocarbons, no carcinogenic benzene, no MTBE to run off and ruin millions of gallons of well water...
...they have higher particulate emissions (but not by much) and higher nitrous oxide (main component of smog) emissions than gasoline engines, but as I've said, these could be remedied very effectively by increased fuel quality.

Your blanket statement that diesels always pollute more than a comparable gas engine is unfounded excepts on perhaps a prejudice. (diesel= smelly black sooty garbage trucks, gas= sweet clean clear Hondas)

Your other statement about diesel being okay for Europe but not for the US doesn't make sense either. Diesel is everywhere here, just like in Europe. It's not some exotic alterna-fuel.

Manufacturers already have passenger car diesel engines galore; who the heck do you think is selling them the Europeans to the tune of 40% of all new cars? Lada? No! Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Volvo, Fiat, DaimlerChrysler all sell diesel engines everywhere but in the USA. The only money spent would be in crash testing and EPA/ CARB certifications, which any carmaker could pass if they didn't have to use the poor quality #2 fuel available here.

Check you facts before you present your opinions as fact next time.

jaje

...how come on the biodiesel website it contradicts what you say? not all engines can run on biodiesel due to the fact that "At higher blend levels, biodiesel may deteriorate natural rubber or polyurethane foam materials."...that means that you'd have to add biodiesel only pumps/tanks/transport (can't mix the fuel with regular diesel) b/c there are still diesels out there than can't run biodiesel...your assumption that all diesels can run it are false [www.biodiesel.org]

...these would be the most efficient/clean solution if fuel cells were not on the doorstep to a technological revolution

you don't see me arguing with you here...they pollute more than most vehicles b/c it takes a gas guzzler engine to move their 4k plus weight...it's just on the small cars that get similar mpg as a diesel...why not compare the large diesels versus the suv (similar engine size and weight of vehicle)

you say i assume and make and assumption?...fact is that diesel as a fuel is dirtier than gasoline b/c it is less refined (it is heavier and oiler)...particulate emissions is the stuff that causes cancer [Recent studies have shown an association between particulate matter and premature mortality from respiratory and cardiovascular disease, and increased incidence of respiratory illness, particularly in children and the elderly. For adults with heart or lung conditions, exposure to fine particulate matter can cause more illness and in some cases premature death. More than 90 percent of the particulates found in diesel exhaust are fine particles.]...quote from a Massachusetts diesel primer from its dot...Federal regulators have estimated that diesel exhaust is responsible for as many as 125,000 cancers nationwide...quote from Sierra Club Air Toxics Campaign...you also forgot to mention that diesels contain 40 different substances listed in EPA reports as hazardous air pollutants with 15 being known carcinogens (www.epa.gov)

since 1990 the benzene content in gasoline has been significantly reduced along with new types of detergents in gasoline and better engine/exhaust technology to further reduce NOx, PM2.5, HC, CO, and HAP

as you are prejudiced towards your diesels

as mentioned before just switching over is not as easy as it seems...it takes years and lots and lots of money out of everyones pocket (oil industry/auto mfgrs/consumers)

Check you facts before you present your opinions as fact next time. [/B][/QUOTE]seek thy own advice...the future does not lie in diesel or petro for that matter...you can hold on to the though that diesel is the wave of the future when its time is also about to pass just like gasoline

i tried to explain that trying to switch over an industry will take years and costs billions of dollars (you make an assumption that you just crash some cars and flip a switch and new pipelines/storage tanks/redesigned car engines etc just appear)...why not invest in the petro-hybrids that are here (3 cars in the US already) and with over 10 different engine/drivetrains coming next year...the r & d is already there and it uses normal gasoline whose industry is at its prime...then take all the money saved and invest it in r & d (the big 3 and the oil industry would like to stagnate fossil fuels and its homegrown partners to keep us at the current pace)...i'm just glad the public accepts the fuel cell leap in technology and not their point of view

i'm not debating that if all we had was the choice between diesel and gasoline that i'd pick gas...i'm debating that in 10 years we will have fuel cells...and the more money we throw towards them the sooner they will get here and investing in short term alternative diesel fuels and recreating an industry to produce and refuel them is a waste of money and time

could you please name all low emissions diesel engines made in america...i don't think i know of any

if we could go back 10-20 years...we should have switched over to the less toxic formula that europe used and eventually biodiesel...but the big 3 tried to do such without proper research that lead to the v8 diesels that got 10k miles before they were shot...the public was tainted to any thoughts of using diesel b/c of this poor introduction...and diesel never recovered...now its too late to do such investments

Pseudobrit

There's still so much wrong with your information...

What is this? Again? What are you talking about? New pipelines? New tanks? New engines?

I'll say this again -- Diesel is everywhere. The infrastructure is already in place and has been for decades. There is no additional investment required. Why is it you insist that there is no diesel available in America?

Biodiesel is a low investment refinined fuel. Some people refine their own in their garages! Diesel as a fuel requires less refinement than gasoline. The base of gasoline is actually a byproduct of the diesel refining, while the gasoline still requires extensive refining after this separation.

It takes just as much money to certify a new gasoline hybrid as it does to certify a new diesel engine. The key word is NEW. There is no money "saved" by using hybrids. It would cost no more for say, Volvo to certify a new diesel powered car in this country than money to certify a new hybrid or even fuel cell vehicle for that matter.

Fuel cells are a good 15 years from being ready for prime time. As it stands, the refinement of hydrogen for use in fuel cells would be less efficient per unit of energy than a diesel hybrid, as someone else pointed out above.

The number one priority in alternative fuels is to stop using fossil fuels, not simply reduce or zero out emissions. Gasoline hybrids allow this if you convert them to accept ethanol (THIS requires engine R&D). Fuel cells do not allow us to stop using fossil fuels. It simply means fossil fuels are burned at a generator to power the refineries where the hydrogen is made and compressed.

A diesel hybrid would allow us to stop using fossil fuels today, with no extra expenditure above the standard certification. Engines are already being made. I hope Honda brings one here. Maybe then you'd change your tune.

Diesel may not be the wave of the future, but it sure makes a lot of sense until your perpetual-motion fuel cell vehicles are available.