Well do you mean 200hp flywheel? B/c that would = about 170hp at the wheels. Which as I've stated before seems possable for an F-given the rest of the honda family's patterns. (I aiming for 170-175hp F22/23 [6500rpm] at the wheels all N/A)

As I said before until the DOHC vtec switch over D's and B's are nearly identical--the same holds true for F and H.

D16 modified with 11:1comp-and a fabulas port job is pulling stock B16A2 power numbers,{and a better curve}. (Keep in mind this is with the D's longer stroke and lower tranny gearing.) So H22's put about 175hp max at the wheels--given this analagy--I graphed stock F and H and used a conservative curve extrapolation for a modified F series. It would appear with higher compression and some head work a 170hp dyno number at the wheels could be acheived at the stock 6700 rpm fuel cut out point. In addition the whole curve takes a slight shift up over the H series (which = F23 all the way until 5000vtec jump). I.E. it would appear an F-series prepped to handle Higher 11:1 compression and good head work could achieve some nice H22 like numbers all on stock cam.... If I fall a little short up top that's still okay b/c the extra shift in the curve down low would compensate. This basically is a great recipe for a street motor--make power in the middle were you use it... well that's the plan anyway. Until this point all data has been based on using thoery of other honda engines and comparing the % gianed per mod. I hope to next see what my Desktop dyno program tells me if I could ever get the flows guessed correctly currently I can't recreate the stock F23 or H22 curves--until that happens I can't predict and mod gains with any accuracy.

Its hard to state what mods will gain what b/c know one to date has posted any modified F-series info. From what I've seen so far the F has as much if not more potential then a D-series and the D can make some really good numbers if given the chance.

 

An F22 with the compression bumped to 11:1 and some head work is not magically going to gain over 50 horsepower at the wheels. It's just not going to happen. Your formula in theory can be used to make some rough predictions but when it comes down to it, you just don't make that much more power with that kind of modification level.

A stock F22 non-VTEC motor will put about 120-125 hp to the wheel. Figure that foes to 135 with bolt ons. Compression bump and head work, 145 to 150 tops. With a hot cam you could perhaps reach 165-170.

 

I too had assumed that it was an optomistic jump in power. However, once I saw those mods making 160hp at the wheels on the D16Z that's nearly a 50hp gain at the wheels. (D16'Z stock is around 110hp)

Now an Accord makes 138hp give or take at the wheels in SOHC Vtec tune. Figure that the larger rotating mass of the F-series will loose some efficiency I still think 170hp at the wheels with compressionm, head work, ligher recipricating mass, and better exhaust doesn't sound all that bad does it? Especially concider in addition to better flow your making w/ 11:1 compression, that's an amazing jump for a 4cylinder of nearly 1.7--seems pretty good to me.

 

The SOHC VTEC Accords are rated at 145-150 hp to the flywheel. That does not translate to 138 hp at the wheels. Figure a 15% minimum driveline loss and a typical stock Accord SOHC VTEC is around 125 hp to the wheels. That's 45 hp you need to make up and it is not going to happen without a cam.

 

Well, I would normally agree with the 15hp driveline loss but since I have the actual dyno graph of a stock F23A1 showing a true 138hp at the wheels (equiped w/5speed manual) I'm using that as the basis for the F23A baseline. The F22B will difenately post less due to its smaller displacement and lower compression compared to the F23. But F22cars need not overcome the weight that F23 cars typically have. The ideal build up car for and F-series engine would be the F23A equiped Acuras CL's. Not only due they come stock with the 2.3liter engine but they benefit from the lower Gen5 platforms less gurth.

If you guys want I could post the matrix of stock H22 and F23 baseline graphs main RPM points. You guys could then construct you own graphs and see the simlairities between the two. I really think the F' has some nice potential for a great street performance engine. Is the F going to stomp a B20 hatch, not likely, but their relative availability makes it an attractive engine to tweak on the cheap IMO. Now if you're running 50lbs. of speakers in your trunk any type of engine tuning is really a moot point.

 

It's 15 per cent driveline loss. Not hp.

Was the 138 hp dyno uncorrected?

Observe.

First look at this dyno plot:



Initial reaction: "Wow! 190 to the wheels from a B16!"

Now view the same plot, corrected for atmospheric conditions and elevation:



And that's out in California. In more temperate climates in a cooler shop environment, not accounting for the temperature, humidity, etc can inflate the numbers a lot.

One last thing: the car in question is a '91. No VTEC. It's not going to gain as much from a cam as an F22 with VTEC.

 

The graphs I was using are from a 99 SOHC VTEC. Not the F-non Vtec as originally was stated for this thread, I did not clarify that. I'm still rather impressed with ~175hp at the wheels seems very nice for a B-series

I'm not out to convert H swappers to F modifiers. I was just trying to illustrate that many individuals I think overlook any of the potentials that an F modify might have. A 91' non vtec Accord might benefit from an F23A5(non-vtec 134hp crank) assuming all the accesories bolt up. An early Accord might even benefit from the weight savings it has vs. later model Accords.

I'm still going to stick to my druthers that properly & mildly tuned and built correctly F23 SOHC Vtec could achieve 170-175hp at the wheels. Until I've seen other data to prove this conclusion wrong I'm going to stick with it. In any case, I still think there is benefit to modify the stock F-series power plant in an Accord. At least to keep the cruise control and all working accessories is definately worth it in any regard.

 

A '99 SOHC VTEC motor is rated at 150 hp. An uncorrected dyno could show 138 hp at the wheel if it was cold outside. Once the dyno plot is standardized the figure is reduced.

Sure you can hit 170 whp with a SOHC VTEC F-series motor. I never said you couldn't. You just need an aftermarket cam.

 

on a 4th gen you can keep the cruise control and all accessories on an H series without a problem

also...why waste time putting in an f23a5 when the f22a6 makes more power (140hp)??

the biggest diff between the f22a1 and a6 is the intake manifold and exhaust manifold...

 

I assume the A6 came from the Oddesey? Could you swap the higher flow oddesey intake and manifold and place them on the F23A5 block for the simple reason of keeping the cubes high?

Would an upgrade to a newer style F-series non-vtec in a Gen 4 chassis facilitate the splicing of any wires? That would make the swap easier then an H, right? However, I think I recall someone installing an F23 into a Gen4 and the motormounts don't mate perfectly if I recall.