GSR head
ITR block
GSR intake manifold with ported secondary work

what are the limits to the tuning capable to achieve
performance while maintaining a reliable setup?
Dont think saving money for NOW but more over
longterm

:naughty:

 

You could probably push around 230 horses to the wheels without losing streetability. (might end up losing that manifold though) Forget about fuel economy.

I'm not a big fan of the ported GSR manifold.

 

i'm not to fond the gsr manifold myself.


if i did an n/a project it'd be.

type r block
b16 head
spec r tranny.

and then i'd have to do some research on that toda stuff everyone is sweatin' or check out what's made for the motors from JG and so forth.

 

If you don't have the ITR block already, I would ditch that idea and not waste your money on it. Pick up a GSR block and throw in some higher compression pistons, forged rods, and get the crank balanced. Now you have a better block than an ITR, for the same price or a few more bucks.

 

I built GSR may be really nice, however you cannot deny that the ITR shortblock from the factory is an nice peice.

Its not cheap, true. I spent $2800 from my source here. I wasnt looking for the least expensive way out of my spun crank bearings. I agree with you, you can make a GSR block perform well with the right internals. Example: for about $800 you can get forged stuff, spend another $500 for machine work to close the deck and bore to 82mm, another $700 for a tech buddy to build it with the proper bearings and rings, rod bolts, head studs and bearings, gasket/refresh kits, new belts, tune up stuff should run about another $500. To make this system last, knock retard modules, proper AFR tuning and the like would be needed. Another $500 + time on the dyno. After this, you will have a nice setup... it wouldnt be hard also to add in the oil cooler found on the ITR block and 94-97GSR. Mine was a 99 so add another $150 for it and may as well install a new oil pump for happy lube purposes $150. Since I am on the stock computer still, revs are not my primary concern yet... however this setup could see 9K easily. More than likely be somewhat reliable as well. So lets total it up:

$3300 +/- 200 bucks done well and built for no worries. See... I dont see anyone "saving money" here. I also bought a new GSR head as my bearing surfaces were galled along with my exhaust rockers being also galled up a bit. I took my lumps on my last setup, learned alot and alot of what not to dos.

On this one, I want it to be a reliable 185-220 whp setup using ECU, exhaust, cam and tranny tuning to accomplish the speed goals I have. I dont need to be the fastest, I only want to run well and run strong. As I learn, I can trick things out further.

Anyone want a GSR shortblock for $500?

Still good:

oil pan, windage tray, block stiffener, 3 rods, 4 pistons
bare block, water pump 40K

damaged:

can possibly save the crank but doubt it
rod where it spun the bearing
main bearings

reused for new ITR block:

98 + GSR water pipe, made copper T fitting for oil cooler
sensors

 

$700 to put a motor together? That's pretty steep, it doesn't take that long and it's not that difficult.

 

$500 is what my friend charged me with me helping him to pull, R/R and reinstall the motor. I was including that with the price of some parts. All in all, thats damn good considering I dont have all the tools.

This is what I want to try for: 11.5:1 static CR
stock ITR bottom end making 215whp/150tq
using the stock head gasket. Another 5K in the
drivetrain seems to be what I am looking at
spending.

What I have:

Stock 99 P72 EMS, exhaust with 98 ITR muffler, ported
VVIS manifold, ARP head studs, stock HG, ITR valvespings,
ITR LMAs, GSR cams and cogs, Refreshed GSR head,
new ITR block.

My Goal with the TEG:
A showroom quality car with mods that are balanced,
acceptable efficiency on petro and good power when
coaxed. Drivability for the street is also a main priority.

99 GSR S80 trans with new synchros, 4.785 FG and
Honda LSD, LS .714 fth gear ring.
Comptech Chromoly Flywheel
Upgraded PP and Kevlar Disc
Upgraded Axles when they break

Goal: Power rated at 0,0 cams and 16 timing making
215/150 SAE corrected, 150whp/tq at 5252rpm.

Hytech full 1.8L 2.5" exhaust

OBD1 computer/Hondata Tuned on 270-310cc injectors

Skunk2 stage 1 cams with approprate cam gears

.0020" mill on head, P/P work for 11.5 static CR
on stock ITR valves and valvesprings with black
nitrided Ti retainers. Debating wether or not to use the
Portflow inners again due to one breaking on me.

Proper cooling system for this extra output, ordered
a Fluidyne and I have a Mugen Thermo and Switch if neded.
may aquire the B series endyn oil pump down the road.

Gauges: A/F, Oil pressure and temp gagues

either P72 manifold reworked retaining the IAB or
skunk2 manifold with 5500 VTEC engagement using
a 65mm TB and portmatching the IM.

endyn/moroso catch can setup

J/S Knock/Retard Unit

MSD ignition with limiter

Stock intake box with 4" cold air extension, fresh air plenum and 3" aluminum piping

for the roadcourse:
16", 15lb or less wheels, Fastbrakes full setup for TEG, 400/500 springs, 2"/1.75" drop on koni yellows, comptech rear swaybar, back seat brace, tinted windows, stock sound system


thats the way I am thinking currently. I would love to do a 2L project but I kinda have committed myself to the 1.8L build on this one.

Mike

 

A new ITR shortblock is a WORLD of difference away from a fully built GSR shortblock. You can expect aftermarket rods to weigh ~20% less than ITR rods, also you'd end up with ARP head studs and rod bolts, which most people would recommend you add the head studs to your current block after you pass 200 whp or so.

Also, $500 of dyno time for a built shortblock? There's nothing to tune. :eh: You're definately going to need dyno time when you put in your cams and a new intake manifold, so what's the difference?

I had a block diassembled, hot tanked, speced, bored, honed, blueprinted, and reassembled with aftermarket parts for $800. This is with no hookups, straight through a reliable, efficient machine shop. They had the block back to me in two days.


On another note, you seem to be going full-hog on some products and easy on others. Full Hytech exhaust and Skunk2 stage 1s? :eh: I understand that drivability and efficiency are important, but so long as you stay out of VTEC for the most part you should be fine going with something a little more aggressive. In addition, the B18s really don't really seem to react that well to the Stage 1s. If you are looking for that sort of power figure I would consider a Jun2 intake cam with ITR exhaust cam. That will give you a good deal more low end power without sacrificing a whole lot of top end. What are you looking to rev this beast to, anyway?

I was considering using the stock filter box on the CX, but decided it would be easier to make myself a sheetmetal solution, as I wasn't going to stick with the stock oval inlet hole on the GSR airbox.

On the topic of tuning, I would suggest another solution besides Hondata. You may not be aware of this fact, but the AEM programmable engine management system does per cylinder knock sensing and retard, which means that you could replace the Hondata unit AND the J&S with an AEM EMS, save yourself a couple of dollars, and get a ECU with a great deal more features & speed. You could also get an MSD w/o limiter and save a hundred more $ or so.

Another thing you might want to check out: www.cmfilters.com If you are going to balls-out on cooling and lubrication, consider a 4-banger sized Accusump and one of their oil filters. Their oil filters flow so much oil that they do not have an oil bypass valve, which means unfiltered oil will never re-enter your engine.

Cliff's notes: There ain't no cliffs notes, read the damn post.

 

All helpful information. I know you want to be helpful about the price thing thats kewl about the computer and all. I say the Skunk2s 1s because my power goal initially will be daily driven/tunable to SAE 185-215whp revving to about 9K maximum.
I say Hytech because its an awesome setup that will have no inherent loss and will work well from 250 to 260+ duration cams. Also, the Skunk2 cams just work well and if it works, hey I am not going to argue with that. I have no experience with Jun or Toda cams, I want a reliable stock like performance from this car as well. I dont want to make all my power from the cam as this causes inherent vibration in the motor and places more strain on the valvetrain. A .0020" mill and a P/P job, tuned with an EMS and the right sized injectors will make a nice setup I feel I am only going the full monty on the exhaust for the sake of how clean it is, it could be a stock peice for how well it is designed and it will be a testament to the vision I have for the car. I am not going the "impress my friends" route, it is for me. I will still use the stock intake tract and box, with my 4" lower cold air extension retaining a quiet wail under the hood. I want to be quiet and fly by most cars on the street, be able to sit at a stop light looking completely like a stock GSR, only with an "OEM performance" look and feel.

$800 for labor from the machine shop is about right, you providing the parts which is another cost. Why is everyone so sensitive about "I only spent this" hey, sometimes things cost money. ME:

99 GSR had
A 68mm portmatched Stock GSR intake manifold with hand ported secondaries and 70/60/68 TB had
GSR computer, H,E and Stock intake with Comptech filter and sealed fresh air extension
used GSR head and valves, cams, caps 750
NEW ITR Shortblock 2950
Tech Labor with me assisting 500 for 3 days work

Parts:
ARP head studs 125
stock head gasket had
NGK wires had
all new tune up stuff had
new thermostat had
timing belt 60
ITR LMAs 275
hondata thermal IM gasket had
new valve cover gasket had
ITR valvesprings had
Skunk2 Ti retainers had
GSR cams
mugen fan switch and thermo 100
tensioner pulley 50
valve stem seals 65
fluids and filter 20
odd parts, brake cleen 50
a used stock clutch 0 (rusty top drawer special which grabs GRRREAT!)
ITR flywheel had
machining the flywheel 0
axxis ultimates 100 from andie lin
USDM 98 ITR muffler 0 a gift from a buddy
fluidyne radiator 325
ITR spark plugs 40

I think thats it. So YOU can total it and see how much money I "wasted." Mycar is happy and I like it, it can last a long time now if I play my cards right and take care of this motor. I want it to be more but power isnt everything. I want the car with more power and BALANCED to perform in like manner, like a stock HONDA. I also expect the motor when tuned to last at least 100K. I dont expect to be beating on it alot, mainly a few hundred hard miles a month for the life of the car.

You have given me some sound advice which I will take into my picture as I put my setup together. I want basically a stock GSR/ITR motor extracted with exhaust/fuel delivery and electronics mainly with just enough cam to get me there. A hot setup is fun, but it will be nice I am sure either way I plan to go.
253/249 is enough cam for me! Anything else seems to be too much for my needs. For now, I am amazed at how well the motor responds. I have felt as much as 165whp in my car so far on my previous motor, and I can tell you this engine already OWNS that one, especially above 4K-7500. I dont have to rev the car so high to make acceleration which is NICE. I have 1500mi now and am ready to go to the 10/30w amsoil. After that, I want to make a 0,0 16BTDC baseline run. I estimate 168/125 on the dyno with 125 at 5250rpm.

 

ididnt read the whole post.. but here are the specs on my roomates itr and its very daily drivable with 91-93 octane and up..
12:1 comp je pistons
eagel rods.
power enterprises timing belt
ported and polished head,intake manifold and 70mm tbody tapered down to 64.
skunk2 cam gears
toda header
toda c cams with full toda valve train.
rc 440cc injectors, aem fuel rail and presur reg with fuel at about 60 static.
hondata stage 2.
jdm itr final drive in tranny
it put down a base of 192 at about 9200 rpms.. still untuned as of now..no cam gear tuning, no partial throttle and no idle tunning done.

my other roommates built b20 vtec still puts about 4-5 car lenghts on this he has
b20 block. same pistons and rods, came comp.. bored to 84.5
b16 head with ctr cams, stock b16 tbody.. dc jdm 4-1 and full 2.5 catback