civic vs minivan
Loves Nascar, NHRA & SCCA
Joined: May 2003
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From: Canada
Originally posted by ludeboom
u forget that hondas are like legos
or at least thats my analogy
unlike a VW
swapping a bigger motor (ie. a V6) is not the best route to go
this is because honda inline 4's make more power than their V6 counterparts
i saw a LS-Vtec civic hatch run a 14.1 at the track the other day, granted it was spoon powered but thats not at all bad for a small displacement 4 cylinder.
the main point is power to weight.
you could have gobs of torque in your 3600 lb camaro or mustang
but when matched with a 2400 lb civic with 200 HP and 161 TQ (h22 swap) the math makes my case
most of the late model Z28's and camaro SS's i saw at the track were running consistent mid 14's with an occasional low 14
there were 5.7's and 4.6's running some good times under 13 but those guys obviously had more serious engine mods.
unfortunately the condition of the track was also playing a role in the performance of everyone there, so i would take a few tenths off those times i quoted. the launchpad was ****ed up concrete with gravel scattered on it, and every time a pro-stock or top fuel car was staging ahead of me, the front of my car got pelted with gravel.
and the evo 7 that was there bested at 14.1 with the spoon LS-Vtec civi.
all in all it was a humbling experience for the handful of people that were there, especially when this dude with a fairlady 300ZX showed up an ran a startling 11.7 at 130ish.
~boom
u forget that hondas are like legos
or at least thats my analogy
unlike a VW
swapping a bigger motor (ie. a V6) is not the best route to go
this is because honda inline 4's make more power than their V6 counterparts
i saw a LS-Vtec civic hatch run a 14.1 at the track the other day, granted it was spoon powered but thats not at all bad for a small displacement 4 cylinder.
the main point is power to weight.
you could have gobs of torque in your 3600 lb camaro or mustang
but when matched with a 2400 lb civic with 200 HP and 161 TQ (h22 swap) the math makes my case
most of the late model Z28's and camaro SS's i saw at the track were running consistent mid 14's with an occasional low 14
there were 5.7's and 4.6's running some good times under 13 but those guys obviously had more serious engine mods.
unfortunately the condition of the track was also playing a role in the performance of everyone there, so i would take a few tenths off those times i quoted. the launchpad was ****ed up concrete with gravel scattered on it, and every time a pro-stock or top fuel car was staging ahead of me, the front of my car got pelted with gravel.
and the evo 7 that was there bested at 14.1 with the spoon LS-Vtec civi.
all in all it was a humbling experience for the handful of people that were there, especially when this dude with a fairlady 300ZX showed up an ran a startling 11.7 at 130ish.
~boom
The power to weight idea is something to keep in mind when swapping a motor but with the powerplants available for a Mustang, that isn't so much of an issue when you're looking at big block power or 351 power. IE A 460 big block puts out 530hp and 520 lb/ft of torque for an extra 300 lbs of weight (NA of course.) The motor costs $5895 MSRP and you can also get a built 351 for about the same price. Then it becomes a game of how much fuel do you want to burn! Ford just released a new "cammer" 5.0 V8 (puts out approx 400+ horses) for hot rods and things but at the tune of $19,000 I think they are going to sell way more 351's! Guess we paid for the reasearch.
I guess your driving terrain will influence what kind of power you go for. There are a number of hills o the roads up this way so when I look at engine options I think low end torque is going to be a big factor. Who knows, I haven't decided on engine work yet. This year will be a suspension upgrade to cure the back end issues and weak bushings.
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Joined: May 2003
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From: Long Island, NY
Originally posted by Nathan1234
WHAT?
WHAT?
the 3 cam lobes per 2 valves simulate the mild lift and high lift cams. allowing a smooth transition between the normal ramps, and the VTEC ramp.
~boom
Loves Nascar, NHRA & SCCA
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From: Canada
Originally posted by ludeboom
yes a hybrid engine setup or at least a swap is almost always required to make a honda very very fast. this is not including turbo, SC, nitrous
im talking all motor
a EG civic hatch (92-95) with an h22a motor swap is going to be damn close to high 13's out of the box with no real mods other than dropping in the motor. thats pretty damn good for a 2000 dollar swap whereas an entry level turbo kit is usually a little more expensive and of course more dangerous. the h22 will take 200k miles of abuse if properly cared for.
~boom
yes a hybrid engine setup or at least a swap is almost always required to make a honda very very fast. this is not including turbo, SC, nitrous
im talking all motor
a EG civic hatch (92-95) with an h22a motor swap is going to be damn close to high 13's out of the box with no real mods other than dropping in the motor. thats pretty damn good for a 2000 dollar swap whereas an entry level turbo kit is usually a little more expensive and of course more dangerous. the h22 will take 200k miles of abuse if properly cared for.
~boom
Second, I am assuming by referencing the entry level turbo you are suggesting that like most stock cars with a turbo or supercharger, that you are at risk of blowing it up if you abuse it? I would never suggest to anyone to use a turbo or supercharger unless the motor has been redone with stronger rods, pistons and valvetrain.
Loves Nascar, NHRA & SCCA
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From: Canada
Originally posted by senseiturtle
Forced induction works all too well, because it increases the amount of torque available at high rpms. Engines have an "optimum operating range", determined by the size of the cams and the flow characteristics of the head.
Since your car acclerates at the level of torque, and racing involves high RPMS, you want lots of it at high rpms, and boost is an easier way of doing this than swapping engines.
You are correct about swapping, but there's a size limit to what a car nowadays can accept. I'd love to stick the twin turbo audi V8 into my jetta, but we can't win them all. Boosting what you've got, then becomes the answer.
Forced induction works all too well, because it increases the amount of torque available at high rpms. Engines have an "optimum operating range", determined by the size of the cams and the flow characteristics of the head.
Since your car acclerates at the level of torque, and racing involves high RPMS, you want lots of it at high rpms, and boost is an easier way of doing this than swapping engines.
You are correct about swapping, but there's a size limit to what a car nowadays can accept. I'd love to stick the twin turbo audi V8 into my jetta, but we can't win them all. Boosting what you've got, then becomes the answer.
Racing does involve higher than normal RPM you're right, BUT you can't run in the redline for the whole track IE on a hairpin turn. The real bennefits of turbo will come on long straights as opposed to areas of the track where you are trying to "power" your way out of tight corner exits. But for normal street driving, low end torque is where to put your money to make the car really work for you.
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Joined: May 2003
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From: Long Island, NY
the term hybrid is pretty basic, it usually involves mating a different head to a different block, among other things
LS-VTEC is usually a B18 non vtec integra LS block with a b16 civic si head on it, there are alot of combinations, the main point of them is to use the high reving high compression head and a torque-ier block (LS), to maximize power.
i dont own one, although i have worked on a few and of course raced a few.
some ppl mate my h22a head to a h23 bottom end to make a 2.3 liter VTEC
again im not really an expert on hybrids, but they tend to make decent gains.
i would prefer to drop a worked out h22a into a civic over a worked b18c just based on cost alone.
the h22a (my engine) is good to 8000 stock, and with some money into the head and pistons you are looking at over 220 HP at the crank. put that in a civic and its low 13's all motor for a few grand. not bad at all
not to mention the h series makes the most torque out of the honda inline 4's, more than the s2000
~boom
LS-VTEC is usually a B18 non vtec integra LS block with a b16 civic si head on it, there are alot of combinations, the main point of them is to use the high reving high compression head and a torque-ier block (LS), to maximize power.
i dont own one, although i have worked on a few and of course raced a few.
some ppl mate my h22a head to a h23 bottom end to make a 2.3 liter VTEC
again im not really an expert on hybrids, but they tend to make decent gains.
i would prefer to drop a worked out h22a into a civic over a worked b18c just based on cost alone.
the h22a (my engine) is good to 8000 stock, and with some money into the head and pistons you are looking at over 220 HP at the crank. put that in a civic and its low 13's all motor for a few grand. not bad at all
not to mention the h series makes the most torque out of the honda inline 4's, more than the s2000
~boom
Domestic Driving Asshole
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Bremerton, WA
Originally posted by ludeboom
the whole idea of DOHC VTEC is to allow 2 different types of cams to be in the head at one time. a mild cam for normal driving, and a more agressive cam for racing situations. this allows uniform engine breathing throughout the powerband, and allows peak torque to be made over a broader span of the RPM range.
the 3 cam lobes per 2 valves simulate the mild lift and high lift cams. allowing a smooth transition between the normal ramps, and the VTEC ramp.
~boom
the whole idea of DOHC VTEC is to allow 2 different types of cams to be in the head at one time. a mild cam for normal driving, and a more agressive cam for racing situations. this allows uniform engine breathing throughout the powerband, and allows peak torque to be made over a broader span of the RPM range.
the 3 cam lobes per 2 valves simulate the mild lift and high lift cams. allowing a smooth transition between the normal ramps, and the VTEC ramp.
~boom
What I'm getting at is the fact that torque will slightly lag and then jump when switching lobes.
For example, some nice & flat torque curves:
2003 Nissan 350Z - http://webpages.charter.net/n.garner/graph_hptq350z.jpg
2003 Dodge Hemi - http://webpages.charter.net/n.garner/graph_hptqhemi.jpg (roll on <3250)
And here is a torque curve with a tell-tale VTEC hump:
2002 Honda S2000 - http://webpages.charter.net/n.garner/graph_hptqvtec.jpg
This shape is very typical of honda VTEC engines, and it's feel is what makes everyone think "VTEC RULES!" (and I will admit it FEELS pretty impressive), when really it is just a drop and then abrupt increase in torque; while the average increase during change-over is not as much as it "feels". It gets the job done pretty well on small displacement motors... but it produces FAR from the flattest curves in production.
Thread Starter
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From: mckinney texas
ummmm that jump in torque is good not bad that torque curve is flat everwhere but the vtec changover and it doesn't even drop if u look at it but lets think 140 torque flat all the way or 140 flat half way then 160 the next half which would u rahter have