That's why I only trail brake in a RWD with enough power to control my rotation That's why I say there's a slight difference between total trail braking, and late-braking with trail Sounds good to me, but since I'm a very poor student, know any ways for me to get some "cheaper" track time? :naughty:

I should clarify right now that the majority of my race experience is in two stroke go-karts, cars I've been snagged to drive, and a bit of experience in purpose built racers. The last time I was at an HPDE was LMS year before last October, and I drove my car to it's limits, but the instructor kept wanting me to apex later, take wider turns, etc, even though with my car in track trim it was wholley unnecessary. Maybe in a car I was unfamiliar with, or if I had more power, I'd drive it the way he wanted me to, it was just odd for him to tell me my lines were wrong [at the time, his first season in a competitive race series anywhere, I've been experimenting with lines since I was 8], even though I would easily make up 8 car lengths over any car on the track in the turns, and driving his way I would gain no corner entry or exit speed, only an extra 70 feet of distance between corners.

 

LOL...

The driver's always the one who decides if he's comfortable or if he is safe or unsafe.

If somebody's a NASA instructor at a particular track, it's usually for a reason, and I would give his instructions a try.

It usually works, but I remember that when I was in Group 2, my reputation for some reason exceeded my actual capabilities.

They gave me an instructor who had evidently been told by the race director that it was time for me to learn new things. I had never trailbraked before, and he decided it was time to learn.

VIR Turn 3. LOL... I decided to preserve my dignity and control-off on the right instead of trying to control all the wiggling.

It was pretty funny, but the instructor was very embarrassed at having sent Grandpa off into the grass. To this day, he is the only NASA instructor who seems to actually avoid me. Poor guy.

I'm a lot more comfortable now, in Group 3, but I have to admit that I miss the company of a knowledgeable instructor sometimes.

Another notable off-course excursion was in the VIR Uphill Esses at about 120, but we'll save that story for later.

This isn't the least bit relevant to what you said...you just got me going, here.

 

while we're on the stiff front vs stiff rear debate ill throw in my 0.02.....

i run the stiff front in my prelude.... stock sways and 225/50-15 tires in the front with 205-55-15 in the rear... the camber on the front was on the negitive end of the recomended spec, with 0 toe in the front and preludes run a lot of caster from the factory, 0.01 toe out in the rear with whatever camber the lowering did for me, not too much....

unless i got really retarded my car never understeered... most of the time i was sideways. i drive late braking with lots of trail braking and left foot braking.... (learning to shift w/o the clutch is fun) id come into a corner braking as late as possible, lift off the brake slightly to turn in, then start w/the left foot braking. using the gas and the brake to control the balance of the car.. if i needed the front to tuck in id add a little more brake, if i wanted the ass end out id lift while holding the brake, if i had more room then it was more gas pedal.

a few people i have talked to say the small tire in the rear hurts me in overall grip.. but the way i see it is with the typica "usdm" setup the inside rear tire comes off the ground.. it takes way more to get the inside tire up on a "jdm" setup.... 2 small tires on the ground is better than one big one in the air.

 

Any recommendations on sway bar manufacturers? Thanks

 

actually in Japan, N1 racing and time attack is very competitive and you will find most racers end up using similar equipment in order to keep up with the winners. its almost required to use 205-45-16s in the front and 195-55-15s in the rear. Ive seen this same set up over and over again. quite often the spring rates are so insane, that the need for a larger diameter sway bar is unnecessary. so 22Kg front and 18kg rear spring rates are quite common.

 

OK...this will probably sound stupid, but here goes...

We had our first 'cross this weekend. I did the shoe polish thing on the tires. The tires never rolled onto the actual sidewalls, but they did roll over onto the tread shoulder on the front tires. Since I thought the tread shoulder was actually part of the tread (flatish surface or contact patch with no lateral load), I didn't add any air. As a result, I fought a car that plowed all day during the Novice School.

The following day, before the actual event, I added about 2 pounds to each front and the car handled much better. Also, the shoe polish showed the tires weren't using nearly as much of the tread shoulder as they had before.

Now, which of these was my mistake? Should I have added air during the school and helped the push? Or, is the idea to use all of the tread...including the tread shoulder?

Confused...

todd

 

Your tyres should roll a little bit onto the shoulder. Some tyre manufacturers will put little triangles on the sides of their tyres, right at the point the tread stops, with the point of the triangle pointing outward toward the tread.

You know your tyres are rolling correctly when you can see that the wear pattern just touches the point of the triangle.

You might have to look closely to see the triangle.

The air pressure that gives you the ideal maximum grip is not necessarily the air pressure that is going to get you through a course the fastest. On a high speed course, you might get the hang of the left foot braking that brings the nose down hard to get instant grip and oversteer. On a slower course, however, you might actually be faster with higher pressures that minimise the dynamic tread patch changes that occur with the weight transfers.

I can give you an answer that will tell you how to tell you have the maximum grip on a given tyre, but that is not necessarily the answer that is going to get you through a particular course the fastest way considering the design of your course and your talents in relation to that course design.

You might actually come away with FTD at an event where you have deliberately sacrificed some grip for smoothness.

There are a number of tyre and handling experts who post at the RR Forum at www.honda-tech.com. If you don't visit there, you might want to think about looking in.

 

On a typical Honda that's going to require pretty mad camber on the front to over come the lack of bite that the car would normally get from the radical weight transfer to the nose.

What you didn't mention in your otherwise correct observation was that these same people will have 3.5 degrees negative camber on the front to get the car to turn w/out having the weight transfer.

On my DC2 ITR hybrid track car, I still have the OEM sway bars, but 14K on the nose and 16K on the rear. 2.5 degrees negative camber.

14K on the nose will help keep the nose up when going into threshold braking from about 140 miles per hour, but the higher springs on the rear will still allow for decent rotation in the corners.

A lot of our cars are getting very old, now, and much of what is perceived as handling anomalies is the result of the rubber suspension bushings simply having too much wear.

 

George

I'm new to all this and late in life too. I have a 95 GSR setup for autocross (bilsteins, Eibach, suspension dynamic swaybars, Nippon F1 w/azenias). Next year I want to get some track time and start club racing. I want to attend all the schools I can also. What should I be looking at for suspension for track racing? Coilovers? Spring rate change?

Thanks
John