firebane

I notice that in my 4dr 93 civic that if I'm cruising down a gravel road at 80km/h+ my ass end becomes QUITE loose and I have learned howto drive with it doing that. Its not the coolest feeling, but I can live with it for now.

mishima_beef

how much should i lower my car?
i know nothing about camber ive only heard that u must put some sort of camber kit if u drop more than 2 inches.. i was thinking of dropping 1.75 inches.. is this a good amount to get alot of downforce and be able to hug the corners?

1stGenCRXer

Lowering a car has no direct affect on downforce unless the underside of your car is channeled to make best use of the air that travels under it.

What it does do is change the center of gravity on the car so that the forces on the tires become more parallel to the contact patch.

That said, camber kits for lowered cars are largely needed so that you don't get uneven wear characteristics on the tread.

The amount you should lower your car depends on your car, spring rates, tires, and road surface. For an average street car, 1.5"-1.75" is fine, but if you don't get a good set of shocks, and don't balance your spring rates accordingly, your handling could actually get worse.

mishima_beef

i plan to get really good springs and shocks and a good suspension setup

upon asking around.. ive been recommended many things and here is my plan for my setup on my 98 civic cx h/b.. please let me know what u think:

with my gs-r swap ill be getting a LSD tranny
custom ground control springs
koni yellow shocks
energy suspension polyurethane bushings
front and rear sway bar upgrades (any help here? i dont know much)
front and rear upper strut tower bars (neuspeed?)
front and rear lower tie bars (recommendations?)
crossbar
lower the car (im not sure to what height... what u recommend?)
15" konig helium wheels
falken azenis tires

i would like to build the car to handle very well at the track so i can destroy this prelude around here that is known for being fast on the track..
let me know what u think and if u have any concerns, critiques..
thanks

CivicSiRacer

As we veteran racers always say the best money spent is on schooling - whether it be an HPDE (High Performance Driving Education) or Evolution School (autocross).

Spend $1000 on suspension mods and you might gain .5-1 second on a 30 second course. Spend $225 on an Evolution School and you can drop 4-10 seconds off the same course. Schooling is much more cost effective than spending money on mods.

mishima_beef

i also plan to get some schooling ... but any feedback on that setup?

CivicSiRacer

If you didn't get it then hold off. And just do the schools. Believe me you will be faster without the suspension setup.

George Knighton

Playing a bit of catch up on the threads, and noticed this.

Are you sure you don't know trailbraking USDM drivers?

I know:

* NASA instructors who teach FF trailbraking techniques to upper level Group 2 drivers, and Group 3 drivers who ask them along.

*Some very successful Honda Challenge drivers (including the H1 and H2 champions in '02), who trail brake as a matter of course.

Having observed the Spoon Sports #96 car up close, and having talked to Ichisima about the differences between USDM and JDM racing setups, the biggest difference physically seems to be that the JDM drivers run more extreme camber settings (negative) on the front, and have bigger swaybars on the back of the car.

When everything's said and done, the JDM and USDM cars appear to have the same handling dynamics, but they achieve it differently.

The USDM way is cheaper, which is a consideration for students.

A couple of years ago, I bought Spoon springs (heavy front) for my ITR, without really telling anybody I was doing it or consulting anybody.

They were a little upset w/me because simply buying the springs, and knowing the purpose I had in mind, they felt this was detrimental and they'd be getting bad publicity for it. It really didn't do what I wanted, and in getting suggestions for sorting it out correctly, AJ Racing (Spoon distributor for North America) advised me that -2.5 negative camber on the front would be a part of the solution.

I'm now on revalved Koni Yellows, 400# springs front, 500# springs rear, and the car's a delight to drive on street or track. Swaybars OEM. It fits perfectly into NASA Group 3 but it can still be driven to and from the track in complete comfort.

I have heard the comment about JDM-exclusive trailbraking before, and I'm not really sure where that comes from. Perhaps it has to do w/all the videos we get from them, which videos have a little screen focused on the pedal activity.

I think that most of the people who watch those tapes are not at a developmental stage where they'd be considering trailbraking in an FF car, and they're not at a stage of development that their instructors are comfortable talking to them about it. So they continue to believe that it's a JDM characteristic.

I watched the RealTime DC2 cars in the only World Challenge race I've seen at VIR Full, and those guys were definitely trailbraking.... Definitely. LOL...

Personally, with my setup, I trailbrake a little, but it's not extreme, since I'm out there to have fun and fully intend to drive the car home and not spin out in front of the Cobra I just passed on the straight.

Example I can think of is Summit Turn 5.

If your lap times are faster, you can get by some very fast cars between Turn 4 and Turn 5, but you'll be faced with having to slow down from 110 to 45 very quickly. An ITR will be borderline ABS even on good R compounds w/that manoeuvre, and you'll have to trailbrake into the turn to control it.

If you time it right, you're on the gas again right when you get to the apex and the Cobra or Porsche driver is mentally scratching his head wondering how you did that.

As the years go by, it seems that more and more USDM racing outfits are using the JDM heavy nose setup but with heavier bars in the rear and radical camber up front to make up for it. Although I'm not at the stage of development where I'd want to start over w/a different suspension, I know there's got to be something to it. I believe that Jason Franza, the ECHC H2 champion in '03 has a heavy nose setup.

That refers to the DC2 people. I've noticed that all the DC5 and EP3 people seem to agree on heavy spring rears. Even the Mugen Street setup (on my daily driver EP3) is heavy springs on the rear.

1stGenCRXer

George, I know how to trail brake, and maybe my definition of trail braking differs a bit from yours.

To me, you're describing when a late braking manuever turns into a necessary trail braking situation. Most ECHC guys I've seen fall into this category, but the majority of their braking occurs with the wheels as straight as possible.

When I trail brake, braking doesn't even begin until AFTER turn-in. Sure, the driver has to lift off the gas a little earlier, but actual braking doesn't start until you've already started your initial turn. Most FF cars suffer an aburpt trip to the gravel trying this .

The additional camber in the front plays a big role in how much you can get away with trail braking, in any car, because of weight transfer. As you turn in, the tire starts flattening, and then once you apply the brakes, the forward outside corner really dives down and takes a lot of weight. A tire nearing zero camber is going to roll over and send you again, to the gravel. Of course, to get the greatest benefit from this without excessive body roll, you need some stiff springs, and you can get away with lighter springs in the rear for rotation under braking.

I've had a chance to talk with drivers from around the world from my living room [internet is great that way], and in my travels been able to talk with regional drivers. There's lots of ways to be fast, but it's all about comfort.

George Knighton

That's about all I have to say about that.

The track corners that I'm aware of, it would be hazardous to even think about that.

It's hard enough doing it my way, and I think that at my stage of development it would be impossible.

In the specific Summit Turn 5 manoeuvre I mentioned, it would be patently impossible to slow from 110 to 45 if you're already turning.

We'll have to get together at Summit or VIR sometime and compare notes.