Occupy "your city"....... thought?
un-Touch'd krew
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 51,774
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From: My own level of hell
A rally is peaceful
A protest is peaceful
A riot is not peaceful
Two of these things are protected under freedom of speech and peaceable assembly...one of these is not.
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"I'll keep my money, guns and freedom. You can keep the "Change."
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Nobama
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Sarasota, Florida
Kind of a yes and no answer actually.
Nationally we vote then the electoral college has the ability to decide if they want to go with the majority or not, up to this point they have gone mostly with the majority but there are a few instances where they have voted against the majority.
The problem is the Americans have this mistaken idea that we live in a democracy...but we do not, we live in a republic that uses "some" democratic process to elect its leadership, but we are far from a democracy. A true democracy is a terrible idea and all who have attempted it have failed miserably, much like communism it only works on a small scale and once it grows it reaches critical mass and falls apart every time.
But yeah the idea of one vote for one man/woman is a huge fallacy people need to get out of the habit of passing on.
Nationally we vote then the electoral college has the ability to decide if they want to go with the majority or not, up to this point they have gone mostly with the majority but there are a few instances where they have voted against the majority.
The problem is the Americans have this mistaken idea that we live in a democracy...but we do not, we live in a republic that uses "some" democratic process to elect its leadership, but we are far from a democracy. A true democracy is a terrible idea and all who have attempted it have failed miserably, much like communism it only works on a small scale and once it grows it reaches critical mass and falls apart every time.
But yeah the idea of one vote for one man/woman is a huge fallacy people need to get out of the habit of passing on.
Not arguing with your point.. just pointing out we don't elect a king. And there are straight electorate votes that matter.
Also, without the electoral college system, presidential candidates would only campaign in high population areas. People in "fly over country" would probably never see a political ad (might actually be a plus), and would be effectively left out of the election.
Last edited by BetterBob; Oct 27, 2011 at 04:55 PM.
Nobama
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Sarasota, Florida
I heard a guy on the radio who brought up a semi-valid point as to what he was protesting.
His point went somewhere along these lines: an average voting citizen has the power to vote for his causes and representatives every year or two. In doing so, he exerts some minute faction of influence over the direction of government when compared to a corporate or special interest entity, which can lobby, donate, bribe, or otherwise exert their interests 365 days a year, and with means of persuasion that are far beyond the capabilities of a normal citizen.
So there's the first valid point I've heard anyone make so far. I'm not sure "wall street" is the best target if you're aiming at lobbyists.
His point went somewhere along these lines: an average voting citizen has the power to vote for his causes and representatives every year or two. In doing so, he exerts some minute faction of influence over the direction of government when compared to a corporate or special interest entity, which can lobby, donate, bribe, or otherwise exert their interests 365 days a year, and with means of persuasion that are far beyond the capabilities of a normal citizen.
So there's the first valid point I've heard anyone make so far. I'm not sure "wall street" is the best target if you're aiming at lobbyists.
un-Touch'd krew
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 51,774
Likes: 1
From: My own level of hell
Ah, but you are picking out the Presidency in particular. Without Congress or the House, the president has little legislative power. The majority does win House and Senate races.
Not arguing with your point.. just pointing out we don't elect a king. And there are straight electorate votes that matter.
Also, without the electoral college system, presidential candidates would only campaign in high population areas. People in "fly over country" would probably never see a political ad (might actually be a plus), and would be effectively left out of the election.
Not arguing with your point.. just pointing out we don't elect a king. And there are straight electorate votes that matter.
Also, without the electoral college system, presidential candidates would only campaign in high population areas. People in "fly over country" would probably never see a political ad (might actually be a plus), and would be effectively left out of the election.
As for your comment about the electoral college and flyover states...well to win the election you have to take only 17 states and all of those are the multiday stops on the campaign trail, the flyover states still don't matter.
Now if the electoral dispersed their votes according to the popular vote as a rule like Nebraska and Maine do then it would be a far more balanced system as far as the presidential elections go.
For Congress and Senate, there are too many lifers in there who are out of touch with their constituents...and far more constituents who aren't looking at the voting records of their representatives, if they did before each election I would bet most those lifers would be out on their asses and those that follow would be sure to keep an ear on their state a bit closer.
Education of the voting populous would be the best way to turn things around. Teach people how to research candidates and understand what these things mean as well as how they apply to their daily lives from multiple angles while ignoring party lines wholly. Pretty much not gonna happen but it needs to happen and soon.
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"I'll keep my money, guns and freedom. You can keep the "Change."
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I
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 56,525
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From: Westside til I die
Did you guys ever see Warren Buffett's solution to the economic problems? It's an interesting concept:
"I could end the deficit in five minutes. You just pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for reelection ... [T]hey're trying to use the incentive now that we're going to blow your brains out, America, in terms of your debt-worthiness over time ... A more effective threat would be just to say, 'If you guys can't get it done, we'll get some other guys to get it done.'"
It will never happen...but I like the idea.
"I could end the deficit in five minutes. You just pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for reelection ... [T]hey're trying to use the incentive now that we're going to blow your brains out, America, in terms of your debt-worthiness over time ... A more effective threat would be just to say, 'If you guys can't get it done, we'll get some other guys to get it done.'"
It will never happen...but I like the idea.
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Live Free Or Die
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,388
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From: San Diego County
The problem is the Americans have this mistaken idea that we live in a democracy...but we do not, we live in a republic that uses "some" democratic process to elect its leadership, but we are far from a democracy. A true democracy is a terrible idea and all who have attempted it have failed miserably, much like communism it only works on a small scale and once it grows it reaches critical mass and falls apart every time.
k three ifers
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 42,568
Likes: 4
From: Buffalo, NY
one more thing, FUCK that stupid hippie. if you are fucking stupid enough to show up in a big crowd being belligerent in front of a group of men with batons then it's your own fault for getting your ass beat. you have a right to peaceably assembly and I don't believe for a second that group was peaceful.
un-Touch'd krew
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 51,774
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From: My own level of hell
Just because you served doesn't mean you don't make really stupid decisions.
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"I'll keep my money, guns and freedom. You can keep the "Change."
"I'll keep my money, guns and freedom. You can keep the "Change."
k three ifers
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 42,568
Likes: 4
From: Buffalo, NY
exactly!
pukimonster
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,967
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From: Milwaukee, WI
The protesters should have came up with a cohesive message before protesting :dunno: If they were protesting that one in every four corporations dodge taxes by moving money offshores, I'd get behind that. Take GE for instance:
From the NY Times:
The company reported worldwide profits of $14.2 billion, and said $5.1 billion of the total came from its operations in the United States.
Its American tax bill? None. In fact, G.E. claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 billion.
From Berkshire Eagle:
GE is also able to avoid U.S. taxes by focusing its profitable ventures offshore, which is also not an option for most taxpayers. Again according to The Times, GE's accumulated offshore profits have risen from $15 billion to $92 billion in the past 10 years. Over that same period of time, GE has eliminated 20 percent of its American work force. At a time when America desperately needs jobs and investment, GE is providing both in foreign countries and not even paying U.S. taxes. (Ironically, GE CEO Jeffrey Immelt heads President Obama's newly formed Council on Jobs and Competitiveness.)
From CNN Money:
GE had plenty of earnings last year -- just not in the United States. For tax purposes, the company's U.S. operations lost $408 million, while its international businesses netted a $10.8 billion profit.
That left GE with no U.S. profit left for Uncle Sam to tax. Corporations typically face a 35% federal income tax on their earnings. Thanks to its deductions and adjustments, GE reported an actual U.S. federal income tax rate of negative 10.5%. It got to add a "tax benefit" of $1.1 billion back into its reported earnings. "This is the first time in at least decades that GE has reported negative U.S. pretax income and it reflects the worst economy since the Great Depression," Anne Eisele, GE's director of financial communications, said via e-mail. But what about the $10.8 billion profit overseas? GE is "indefinitely" deferring income tax payments on those profits, Eisele said.
It may seem like accounting magic, but it's completely legit. GE isn't the only "Top 5" company on this year's Fortune 500 list that owed no income taxes. Bank of America (BAC, Fortune 500), which suffered major losses in 2009, included a tax benefit of $1.9 billion in its annual profit.
The company reported worldwide profits of $14.2 billion, and said $5.1 billion of the total came from its operations in the United States.
Its American tax bill? None. In fact, G.E. claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 billion.
From Berkshire Eagle:
GE is also able to avoid U.S. taxes by focusing its profitable ventures offshore, which is also not an option for most taxpayers. Again according to The Times, GE's accumulated offshore profits have risen from $15 billion to $92 billion in the past 10 years. Over that same period of time, GE has eliminated 20 percent of its American work force. At a time when America desperately needs jobs and investment, GE is providing both in foreign countries and not even paying U.S. taxes. (Ironically, GE CEO Jeffrey Immelt heads President Obama's newly formed Council on Jobs and Competitiveness.)
From CNN Money:
GE had plenty of earnings last year -- just not in the United States. For tax purposes, the company's U.S. operations lost $408 million, while its international businesses netted a $10.8 billion profit.
That left GE with no U.S. profit left for Uncle Sam to tax. Corporations typically face a 35% federal income tax on their earnings. Thanks to its deductions and adjustments, GE reported an actual U.S. federal income tax rate of negative 10.5%. It got to add a "tax benefit" of $1.1 billion back into its reported earnings. "This is the first time in at least decades that GE has reported negative U.S. pretax income and it reflects the worst economy since the Great Depression," Anne Eisele, GE's director of financial communications, said via e-mail. But what about the $10.8 billion profit overseas? GE is "indefinitely" deferring income tax payments on those profits, Eisele said.
It may seem like accounting magic, but it's completely legit. GE isn't the only "Top 5" company on this year's Fortune 500 list that owed no income taxes. Bank of America (BAC, Fortune 500), which suffered major losses in 2009, included a tax benefit of $1.9 billion in its annual profit.