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Study: Prayer doesn't affect heart patients

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Old Mar 30, 2006 | 07:15 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by qtiger
By questioning purpose you are saying that you don't think the purpose was to purely to advance scientific knowledge which implies an agenda/bias to the research.
why else would anyone bother with such a study? what merits does it have towards the scientific community?

interestingly enough though, many surgeous believe in the benefits of a patient having a good attitude going into surgery. is that really any different than prayer? so where's the study on that?

come on now. don't be so obtuse. the agenda is perfectly clear.
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Old Mar 30, 2006 | 10:13 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by reno96teg
why else would anyone bother with such a study? what merits does it have towards the scientific community?

interestingly enough though, many surgeous believe in the benefits of a patient having a good attitude going into surgery. is that really any different than prayer? so where's the study on that?

come on now. don't be so obtuse. the agenda is perfectly clear.
Have you even read any of my posts?

This study was funded by a religious foundation. Perhaps they were hoping to find a positive correlation between prayer and recovery? You know, in the real scientific world you publish the results of your research whether it agrees with what you want it to say or not.
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Old Mar 30, 2006 | 11:23 PM
  #53  
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reno, the merits are clear no? to further evaluate a known method of healing. if the study was done on penecilin 100 years ago the merits would be clear, no?

howevr,, while not interested enough to read up on it, my money is on there's no way they controlled enough variables for this to be scientifically sound,,, how could anyone?

really loved the black and white reality alert, classic...
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Old Mar 31, 2006 | 12:01 AM
  #54  
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too late to move this to on topic? h:
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Old Mar 31, 2006 | 12:11 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by worm696
They are most likely praying to the wrong person! If a person has the Lord Jesus Christ in his/her heart and another believer is praying for him/her heart patient, to God, then yes, it will help. I am a Christian and of course, this is what I believe.
for some reason this post made me :rofl:
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Old Mar 31, 2006 | 04:10 AM
  #56  
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somebody having credibility and a PhD doesnt mean that a statistical analysis is truth. anybody who has taken basic undergrad stats learned, probably in the first month, about how you can use different margins of error among other things to make the results come out a particular way. not saying this guy did but just because this came out saying a. it didnt help and b. it actually hurt is all chance.

one thing i never understood is why people who chose to live without religion (and that's fine by me, whatever works for you) have this big problem with religion, like they are so much smarter than those of us with any level of faith. friggin stupid. yep, you all know something we dont know

maybe we should find some doctors with strong Christian values to do a statistical analysis about the lifespan of people who follow no religion. i'd bet every penny that i earn for the rest of my working life that the numbers they come up with prove that all you agnostic/atheistic people die younger. does that make it so? not necessarily but hey look, read the numbers they say its true!!!

statistics should be a required core college course, i dont care what your program is. it would save a lot of people from being suckered throughout their lives.
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Old Mar 31, 2006 | 06:42 AM
  #57  
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1) you're reading an "abstract" from CNN, are you expecting them to give you a fair summary of the study
2) "killing the messenger" has been a great way to thwart information that you disagree with.
3) statistics can be used to prove or disprove anything. If the study was done poorly, Harvard will not risk souring their reputation.

And since I'm in the library, I guess I can show that there are more studies than just this one to show and not show (NOT PROVE) the point.

Full Text: COPYRIGHT 2005 Reed Business Information Ltd. All Rights Reserved. Australian Doctor July 22, 2005 v00 i00 p8

by Bianca Nogrady

LANCET US researchers should be congratulated -- for their ability to obtain funding to conduct a randomised clinical trial on the power of prayer.

A group of 748 patients undergoing coronary revascularisation were randomised to "off-site prayer" by on-call congregations, or to receive a dose of music, imagery and touch therapy at their bedside.

Unfortunately, neither intervention had any effect on major adverse cardiovascular events, six-month mortality or re-admission rates, according to the paper published in the Lancet (16 July).

The study of "noetic interventions"-- defined as therapies with no tangible method of administration -- covered as many spiritual bases as possible. Researchers enrolled prayer groups from Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Buddhist congregations who were notified of their designated patient's clinical and personal background within 30 minutes of randomisation.

Furthermore, in the final year, the researchers decided to double the prayer dose by establishing a "two-tiered" prayer therapy.

"When a patient was assigned prayer therapy, the second-tier groups were not given information on the name, age or illness but were simply notified that a patient had been enrolled and asked to pray for the prayers of the primary-tier congregations," the authors wrote.

The music, imagery and touch therapy involved a practitioner "certified in Level 1 Healing Touch" visiting the patient's bedside before the procedure to apply healing touch hand positions while the patient listened to a choice of music through headphones and focused on relaxing imagery.

While this therapy also had no effect on outcomes, it did reduce patients' distress, although this may have related to the presence of a compassionate human rather than any mystical element of treatment, researchers said.

Lancet 2005; 366:211-17.
I only have access to these terrible abstracts:

Men's Health, March 2005 v20 i2 p40
Faith. (prayer helps cardiac patients)(Brief Article)

Full Text: COPYRIGHT 2005 Rodale Press, Inc.

^ Cardiac patients who pray have a greater sense of hope and control than those who don't, say researchers at the University of Michigan. This may be why those with faith have shorter hospital stays and fewer complications than their nonreligious peers.
Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients, Feb-March 2005 i259-260 p52(1)
Acquired immunodeficiency syndrome and prayer. (Psychoneuroimmunoendocrinology Review and Commentary) Robert A. Anderson.

Full Text: COPYRIGHT 2005 The Townsend Letter Group

In this double-blind controlled trial of distance healing in 40 patients with advanced AIDS, subjects were pair-matched for age, CD[4.sup.+] count and number of AIDS-defining illnesses and randomized to receive either 10 weeks of distance healing (DH) treatment or to a conventional-treatment-only control group. Subjects were told they had a 50/50 chance of being in the active treatment group and all received standard care, 85% of the 37 men and 3 women professed a belief in distance healing. DH treatment was performed by unpaid self-identified healers (mean of 17 years experience) representing many different healing and spiritual traditions located throughout the United States, and subjects and healers never met. Healers were randomly assigned to subjects one week at a time, to work at the DH one hour daily; they received a packet with only the first name, photo, CD[4.sup.+] count and current symptoms of each subject; each healer worked with five subjects, and turned in logs of completion of sessions.

At 6 months, a blinded medical chart review found that treatment subjects acquired 0.1 new AIDS-defining illnesses/patient vs. 0.6 in controls (2p=.04), had a mean Boston Health Illness Severity score of 0.8 vs. 2.65 for controls (2p=.03), had 0.15 hospitalizations/subject vs. 0.6 for controls (2p=.04), 0.5 days of hospitalization vs. 3.4 (2p=.04) and required 9.2 outpatient doctor visits/subject vs. 13.0 (2p=.01). Recoveries from AIDS defining illnesses (6 vs. 2) did not reach significance. Treated subjects also showed significantly improved mood vs. controls (Profile of Mood Score 26 vs. 14) (2p=.02). Although ending CD[4.sup.+] counts were 55.5 and 31.1 [[micro]l.sup.3], respectively, this did not reach statistical significance.

Sicher F et al. A randomized double-blind study of the effect of distant healing in a population with advanced AIDS. Report of a small scale study. West J Med 1998 Dec; 169(6):356-63

COMMENT: These data strongly support the possibility of a distance healing/prayer effect on these AIDS patients. Dr. Dan Benor has catalogued 131 published prayer studies, of which 56 showed positive results. Many of these studies were done with plants, microbiological organisms, animals and enzymes. This study was well controlled and blinded, with rather striking results. The mechanisms by which prayer might be explained are poorly understood. Drs. Roberto Assagioli and Carl Jung postulated a "collective unconscious." Dr. Larry Dossey has written of the "non-locality" of prayer. Dr. William Tiller speaks of the subtle energy field with energies vibrating in the gigahertz range and moving up to [10.sup.9] times the speed of light. I suspect that these postulations will lead to a coherent model of distance healing within the next decade.

Robert Anderson is a retired family physician whose practice career took a holistic turn as decades passed. He has authored five major books, Stress Power!, Wellness Medicine, The Complete Self-Care Guide to Holistic Medicine (co-author), Clinician's Guide to Holistic Medicine (McGraw Hill, 2001), and The Scientific Basis for Holistic Medicine, (6th edition 2004), available from American Health Press, holos@nwi.net. Anderson was the founding president of the American Board of Holistic Medicine, past president of the AHMA, former Assistant Clinical Professor of Family Medicine at the University of Washington and is currently an Adjunct Instructor in Family Medicine at Bastyr University.
Presbyterian Record, Dec 2003 v127 i11 p12(1)
Study concludes prayer has no effect on surgery. (Brief Article)

Full Text: COPYRIGHT 2003 Presbyterian Record

Prayer appears to have no effect on patients undergoing heart surgery, a new study has found. Researchers at Duke University Medical Center in North Carolina followed the progress of 750 patients, half of whom were prayed for by a team of Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Muslims. Those who were prayed for fared no better than those who were not, The Times of London reports.

England's Bishop of Durham, the Rt. Rey. Tom Wright, criticized the study. "Prayer is not a penny-in-the-slot machine," he told the newspaper. "This is like setting an exam for God to see if God will pass it or not."

Source: Globe and Mail
I can't copy some of them...obviously.

Psychosocial Factors in Outcomes of Heart Surgery : The Impact of Religious Involvement and Depressive Symptoms

Associations of stronger religious beliefs with fewer complications and shorter hospital LOSs accord with previous findings, extending them for the first time to indicators of surgical recovery. Longer hospital LOSs for patients reporting frequent religious attendance is also a novel finding and may reflect extrinsic religiosity. Stronger religion effects in women than in men, longer hospital LOSs among patients reporting high levels of depressive symptoms, and the impact of older age on both outcomes, argue for a multivariate approach to understanding adaptation to heart surgery. Limitations of this study include use of a convenience sample, less-than-comprehensive assessment of biomedical risk factors, and the ambiguities of correlational research. However, a prospective design and biomedical outcomes are important strengths. Additional research is needed to replicate and extend these findings, and to examine multiple mechanisms that may explain positive and negative associations between separable facets of religiousness and various health outcomes.

Last edited by redgoober4life; Mar 31, 2006 at 06:45 AM.
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Old Mar 31, 2006 | 06:43 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by ISP James
somebody having credibility and a PhD doesnt mean that a statistical analysis is truth.
And someone who dresses up in greatly ornate polyester rugs with a funny hat and carrying a bible is more truth?

I'm not saying this study is 100% truth. It's just a study. But it's much more tangeable than anything in the bible, yet people believe that more. It doesn't make any sense.

People are arguing left and right about the credibility of this study. Yet offer no proof of the credibility of their own religion. Oh they use the "I believe" and I have faith" arguement. Believe in what? A book? I believe in something. I believe that books and writings and things have been passed on for many years. Hundreds maybe even thousands of years. Over that long of a time how can you believe in what has been passed on so much? It doesn't make any sense to believe in something that has changed hands so much and probably been altered just as many times.

Think back to the "time of jesus". They didn't have a good way of keeping records. So the stories were passed on and eventually written down. To me, it doesn't make a lick of sense to base ones life on a collection of stories that have absolutly no way of beeing proven or verified. Yet people find this study more hard to believe.
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Old Mar 31, 2006 | 06:51 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by reno96teg
why else would anyone bother with such a study? what merits does it have towards the scientific community?

interestingly enough though, many surgeous believe in the benefits of a patient having a good attitude going into surgery. is that really any different than prayer? so where's the study on that?

come on now. don't be so obtuse. the agenda is perfectly clear.
No, it's not. I think it's important to figure out what's best for the patient. My guess is that too much prayer gives people the impression that their outcomes are completely external and they think that "luck" or "faith" alone is going to pull them through. They get an attitude of "why bother, God will have his way!" This is an unhealthy way to be motivated, especially to live.
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Old Mar 31, 2006 | 07:25 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by clickwir
And someone who dresses up in greatly ornate polyester rugs with a funny hat and carrying a bible is more truth?

I'm not saying this study is 100% truth. It's just a study. But it's much more tangeable than anything in the bible, yet people believe that more. It doesn't make any sense.
.....

Think back to the "time of jesus". They didn't have a good way of keeping records. So the stories were passed on and eventually written down. To me, it doesn't make a lick of sense to base ones life on a collection of stories that have absolutly no way of beeing proven or verified. Yet people find this study more hard to believe.
a. the first paragraph here shows your close minded ignorance and quite frankly, i find it offensive.

are you asking the faithful to say "oh science and statistics said im wrong, i no longer believe that there is a greater being." again, ignorant.

truth be told, whether or not any "God" actually exists is irrelevant IMO. some believe that there is a "God" some think its blasphemy. but one thing is for certain, at least those of us that have some faith have something to believe in. nothing bad comes from religion as it was intended from the begining - whether the begining is "God" or some crazy people from 1000's of years ago that "made up some stories" all religion is based on peacefulness, a life of morality, and altruism. so when people come around make jokes or basicly discredit anything that comes from religion, thats bullshit IMO.
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