The Debate
pukimonster
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,967
Likes: 2
From: Milwaukee, WI
I think that the problem is that people think that everybody in the hood is broke and on welfare. Some people get good money, and good jobs, but choose to stay in the hood because that was where they were raised and that's where their family is. IMO those people get a lot more criticism than they should, because they did all that work to make themselves better off but they stay in the hood, but they are the people who motivate the younger kids to do better for themselves because they deserve better.
Come to think of it, isn't accordatlguy (i'm not sure if he post on han much) a well-to-do conservative guy that lives in the projects?
Come to think of it, isn't accordatlguy (i'm not sure if he post on han much) a well-to-do conservative guy that lives in the projects?
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 16,353
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From: Ossining, New York
Originally Posted by MrFatbooty
"I know this person on welfare who has a lot of nice stuff, so they must be abusing welfare, and in fact the whole system must be being abused!"
That's the standard rhetorical justification for the need to scrap the whole thing. I don't buy it.
So a single mother who only can work as a manager in a grocery store, or whatever the case may be, is able to lead a nice-on-the-surface existence. Consumers in this country are so conditioned to buy stuff and they all take on debt that far outpaces their income. What if this person has a pattern of buying stuff to put on appearances of having a normal income level despite their lower-than-average means?
So when someone is living beyond their means and they just so happen to be on welfare, I guess they MUST be abusing the system. I mean there's no other logical explanation for it; it's not like our entire society is based around the ability to buy stuff on credit.
Anecdotal examples do not define a trend. Furthermore, anecdotal examples that aren't even conclusive in and of themselves are even less useful.
That's the standard rhetorical justification for the need to scrap the whole thing. I don't buy it.
So a single mother who only can work as a manager in a grocery store, or whatever the case may be, is able to lead a nice-on-the-surface existence. Consumers in this country are so conditioned to buy stuff and they all take on debt that far outpaces their income. What if this person has a pattern of buying stuff to put on appearances of having a normal income level despite their lower-than-average means?
So when someone is living beyond their means and they just so happen to be on welfare, I guess they MUST be abusing the system. I mean there's no other logical explanation for it; it's not like our entire society is based around the ability to buy stuff on credit.
Anecdotal examples do not define a trend. Furthermore, anecdotal examples that aren't even conclusive in and of themselves are even less useful.
Wannabe yuppie
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 25,918
Likes: 0
From: Madison, WI
Originally Posted by BonzoAPD
I'm sorry Mike but welfare should not be used to buy luxury items and help a person live beyond their means. It should be used to put food in people's mouths, clothes on their backs (not designer lables) and a roofs over their heads
Welfare is not what allows people to buy luxury items, the ready availability of massive amounts of credit is.
Anyone with a halfway decent credit score can find a way to pay for a car, a house, whatever. Sure, eventually it will catch up to them, but this is all separate from social programs.
Don't assume that because someone is on welfare, that's the reason they can pay for the stuff they have.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 16,353
Likes: 0
From: Ossining, New York
Originally Posted by MrFatbooty
I guess my language was a bit too complex there for you to find the point.
Welfare is not what allows people to buy luxury items, the ready availability of massive amounts of credit is.
Anyone with a halfway decent credit score can find a way to pay for a car, a house, whatever. Sure, eventually it will catch up to them, but this is all separate from social programs.
Don't assume that because someone is on welfare, that's the reason they can pay for the stuff they have.
Welfare is not what allows people to buy luxury items, the ready availability of massive amounts of credit is.
Anyone with a halfway decent credit score can find a way to pay for a car, a house, whatever. Sure, eventually it will catch up to them, but this is all separate from social programs.
Don't assume that because someone is on welfare, that's the reason they can pay for the stuff they have.
Now back to the topic, if they can get the credit to buy this stuff, they should not be on welfare. They should not buying things that are not necessities and racking up debts
I need sleep...
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,632
Likes: 0
From: NH
Originally Posted by MrFatbooty
I guess my language was a bit too complex there for you to find the point.
Welfare is not what allows people to buy luxury items, the ready availability of massive amounts of credit is.
Anyone with a halfway decent credit score can find a way to pay for a car, a house, whatever. Sure, eventually it will catch up to them, but this is all separate from social programs.
Don't assume that because someone is on welfare, that's the reason they can pay for the stuff they have.
Welfare is not what allows people to buy luxury items, the ready availability of massive amounts of credit is.
Anyone with a halfway decent credit score can find a way to pay for a car, a house, whatever. Sure, eventually it will catch up to them, but this is all separate from social programs.
Don't assume that because someone is on welfare, that's the reason they can pay for the stuff they have.
Wannabe yuppie
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 25,918
Likes: 0
From: Madison, WI
You think you need a job to have a good credit rating?
I sold cars to people all summer long who were making less in a year after taxes than the sticker price on the window. As long as you pay your bills on time you can pretty much get as much credit as you could ever possibly want.
Hell you don't even need a good credit rating to get a car. People with 500 credit scores who really want that new car are willing to take a loan at 15% just so they can have what they want.
Just because lenders are willing to extend credit to a person doesn't mean they make enough money for the necessities, nor does it mean they should be forced into debt to buy what they need. That's why we have welfare programs.
Now if someone on welfare decides to put themselves in debt up to their eyeballs because they want to have a nice car, they're not abusing the system because they're not using the money to pay for that car. They're in debt.
I sold cars to people all summer long who were making less in a year after taxes than the sticker price on the window. As long as you pay your bills on time you can pretty much get as much credit as you could ever possibly want.
Hell you don't even need a good credit rating to get a car. People with 500 credit scores who really want that new car are willing to take a loan at 15% just so they can have what they want.
Just because lenders are willing to extend credit to a person doesn't mean they make enough money for the necessities, nor does it mean they should be forced into debt to buy what they need. That's why we have welfare programs.
Now if someone on welfare decides to put themselves in debt up to their eyeballs because they want to have a nice car, they're not abusing the system because they're not using the money to pay for that car. They're in debt.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 16,353
Likes: 0
From: Ossining, New York
Originally Posted by MrFatbooty
You think you need a job to have a good credit rating?
I sold cars to people all summer long who were making less in a year after taxes than the sticker price on the window. As long as you pay your bills on time you can pretty much get as much credit as you could ever possibly want.
Hell you don't even need a good credit rating to get a car. People with 500 credit scores who really want that new car are willing to take a loan at 15% just so they can have what they want.
Just because lenders are willing to extend credit to a person doesn't mean they make enough money for the necessities, nor does it mean they should be forced into debt to buy what they need. That's why we have welfare programs.
Now if someone on welfare decides to put themselves in debt up to their eyeballs because they want to have a nice car, they're not abusing the system because they're not using the money to pay for that car. They're in debt.
I sold cars to people all summer long who were making less in a year after taxes than the sticker price on the window. As long as you pay your bills on time you can pretty much get as much credit as you could ever possibly want.
Hell you don't even need a good credit rating to get a car. People with 500 credit scores who really want that new car are willing to take a loan at 15% just so they can have what they want.
Just because lenders are willing to extend credit to a person doesn't mean they make enough money for the necessities, nor does it mean they should be forced into debt to buy what they need. That's why we have welfare programs.
Now if someone on welfare decides to put themselves in debt up to their eyeballs because they want to have a nice car, they're not abusing the system because they're not using the money to pay for that car. They're in debt.
Mike you are not getting what I am saying. I am saying that if these people can pay bills to pay for luxury items, they should not be on welfare.
Welfare money should be used for the necessities only.
I need sleep...
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,632
Likes: 0
From: NH
Originally Posted by MrFatbooty
Now if someone on welfare decides to put themselves in debt up to their eyeballs because they want to have a nice car, they're not abusing the system because they're not using the money to pay for that car. They're in debt.
Wannabe yuppie
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 25,918
Likes: 0
From: Madison, WI
Originally Posted by BonzoAPD
Mike you are not getting what I am saying. I am saying that if these people can pay bills to pay for luxury items, they should not be on welfare.
Welfare money should be used for the necessities only.
Welfare money should be used for the necessities only.
Welfare is not what allows people to buy luxury items, credit is. You'd be amazed how bad your credit can be and you can still get nice things.
Lending institutions are in the business of making money. They extend credit to people because they want to make a profit, even if those people can't afford to pay those bills.
Welfare doesn't magically give them the ability to pay those bills. They instead take on all kinds of debt because they want to have nice things even though they can't afford it.
The same is true for people both on and off welfare programs. It just so happens that the people on welfare programs are getting some help for the necessities of life. Having nice things does not equate to having money. The whole point is that credit, not welfare, is what allows people that do not have money to get things anyway.
If you don't want people with no money to have nice things, then you're just going to have to take that up with the lenders.
