i read a book by a guy, whose pen name is Harun Yahya, called The Evolution Deceit. This book changed my life and the way that I look at everything.

In the first part of the book he disproves the theory of evolution, and in the second part he proves the existence of God and fact of creation.

He starts off the second part talking about our senses. Basically, we have five senses that connect us to the outside world. we cannot interact with the outside world in any other way than through our senses. each of these senses can be replicated in our dreams. we see, hear, touch, taste, and smell in our dreams. What is the difference between sleep and awake?

When you see, an electrical signal is sent from your eye to your brain. when you hear, the same thing happens. all of your senses function this way. hypothetically speaking, if you could create a machine that could convey a signal to your brain for each one of your senses, you could replicate an entire life time, to nothing but a brain.

so, this tells us that nothing can be proven to exist, like your computer moniter in front of you now.

or the brain in your head.

well, if the brain doesn't exist, then who is viewing all of this input from your senses?

that is the soul.

well, if the outside world doesn't exist, then who is giving me all of this input?

That would be God.

i hope i didn't **** all of this up while typing it to you, but if i did, go to:

www.HarunYahya.com

this was a mind-blowing idea to me along with the Relativity of Time he talks about after this part. its not that i never thought about this topic before, its that i was always left with questions that i couldn't find an answer to.

I highly recommend this book to anyone. he is a smart man

 

I always lumped law, language, and religion in the same kinda catigory as far as history, civilization, and whatnot.

they all have the same ideas, but it vary's a little from region to region.

which leads me to beleive:

- God exists
- He/she/it (for simplicity, I'll refer to it as 'he') favors things base on social advances (rewards monothestic societys, while destroying polythestic societys. In a similar way, he rewards the americans for social advances, but even that only goes so far...)
- all religions are 'right'
- evolution is not limit to phisical attributes (I think we're evolving right now)

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i'm sorry i didn't clarify about the what religion i was talking about (i meant judaism, and i obviously had the date wrong--i was thinking about christianity, and yes, i know judaism is much older than christianity.)

remember, i'm a historian. i say history leads me not to believe in a god, and i won't explain myself further. in my head, it makes sense, but in someone else's mind, it may mean something completely different (ie-babel fish, for the hitchhiker fans.)

personally, i don't think anyone should attack anyone for their religious beliefs (although sometimes i get irritated, i would never force someone to be an athiest). i just get aggravated with the general christian population for trying to convert me and all of the pain and suffering they put others through unnecessarily.

but 18secferio, you have a different view on your religion than most people who believe in god. and its much more open-minded. you might want to look into gnostic christianity, i think it might make more sense to you.

eh, I'm firmly against organized religion.

I'm not gonna say you're wrong. Like I've said, I also did not beleive in God. But my life brought me back to him, full circle.

just understand (and this goes for everyone) that if I attack an idea that came from you, I'm not nessisarly attacking you.

however, being my concided self, I feel I'm right. Again, the point of this thread is for you to challenge my thoughts, and maybe push this idea forward.

while I'll remain open minded since I haven't read it, I think the theory of evolution, no matter how much bible thumpers hate it, is true. Science explains things to us one way, religion tells us the same thing, but words it different.

big bang? what about god saying "let there be light!"?

evolution? same as God creating man. We had to come from somewhere, and I abosolutely refuse to beleive God just made us, and *poof* here we are.

and besides, there's evolution of the mind. The very thing I'm going through (that most of us, if not all, go through), and I feel the only way forward in life is evolution of society. Otherwise, I feel God will stick civilization down in the same way he struck down the romans, egyptians, and every other society that has failed him.

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He starts off the second part talking about our senses. Basically, we have five senses that connect us to the outside world. we cannot interact with the outside world in any other way than through our senses.

I totally agree. Something similar is what I came up with while tripping hard on mushrooms (yeah, hows that for research :fawk: ), but seriously, I had this vision of basiclly what you discribed. But there's two things you left out:

other than the 5 senses, there's two more things that motivate us in life- The right, and the perverse. The right pushes us twords making good dicisions and things of that sort. Basiclly, what would jesus do. The perverse, however, deals with "devil" thoughts, such as sex purly as sex, murder, and other such sins.

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each of these senses can be replicated in our dreams. we see, hear, touch, taste, and smell in our dreams. What is the difference between sleep and awake?

very little other than this:

in dreams, anything is possible. Sometimes, through a idea called 'lucid dreaming,' we can actually control the dream. The basic idea is to realize within the dream that you are dreaming. This could usually be done by (and this is in the dream) flipping a light switch or looking at the time twice (if you flip a light in the dream, nothing will change. The light will either stay on or off. If you look at a clock twice in a dream, the first time will be much different than the second time, even though you read it, look away, and read it again in a small time). But there's other ways to do this as well. In righting your dreams, you can basiclly predict your dreams, and certain "dream signs" within them. For instance, most of my dreams revolve around sex, drugs, and my car(s). Everyone has their own set dreams. Basiclly, you red flag certain things that keep popping up, and in the dream, you relize this.

is lucid dreaming possible? Yes. I've done it once, and have known other people who can do it.

however, the biggest difference between dreams and reality is in dreams you have total control, where you don't in reality (and I mean TOTAL control).

I feel the biggest porpous for dreams in life is to remember that afterlife is just a dream as well. Like the movie "what dreams may come." I think it hit the nail right on the head.

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When you see, an electrical signal is sent from your eye to your brain. when you hear, the same thing happens. all of your senses function this way. hypothetically speaking, if you could create a machine that could convey a signal to your brain for each one of your senses, you could replicate an entire life time, to nothing but a brain.

like the matrix

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so, this tells us that nothing can be proven to exist, like your computer moniter in front of you now.

or the brain in your head.

thats very true.

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well, if the brain doesn't exist, then who is viewing all of this input from your senses?

that is the soul.

well, its not that the brain doesn't exist. Its that the brain serves its function, and while we try and imitate it, we will never reach the level that God has done with us.

but I like how you make the importance of the soul.

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well, if the outside world doesn't exist, then who is giving me all of this input?

That would be God.

i hope i didn't **** all of this up while typing it to you, but if i did, go to:

www.HarunYahya.com

this was a mind-blowing idea to me along with the Relativity of Time he talks about after this part. its not that i never thought about this topic before, its that i was always left with questions that i couldn't find an answer to.

I highly recommend this book to anyone. he is a smart man

I'll definatly look into this. Thanks for the heads up

 

Mr 18second, where do babies come from?

 

:rofl: from my cock

nah....

eh, there could be a sort of "recycling" of souls. You know, reincarnation.

first of all, humans arn't the only things with souls. All living life contains this. Even plants (we all learned how plants work in science, whats the difference between the veins in plants where the vital processes that keep it alive take place and, say, a highway full of cars? Or ants in a line?).

maybe there's a trade off between the number of animals and the number of plants. And then there's a trade off between animals and humans, and souls kinda go all around this thing, until we run out of souls.

well, God did say he's Alpha and Omega..... Drawing togeather this idea with the circle, what if the world ends when we run out of souls? Eh, its hard to say, but this is the abstract thinking we need to move ahead.

 

Here's my problem:

I don't believe in a God. I guess I buy into the whole scientific, we were created by a long string of chaotic, physics-driven, random hapenstance going all the way back to the big bang... and what started the big bang? What was before that? Well, we don't know, but maybe after scientists bust their brains for a couple more decades, they'll figure it out. Of course, the problem is, everything we hold to be true about physics, science and reality will be difinitively disproven at some point. Hell, we may even figure out how to disprove our own existance if we pay enough mathematicians to work round the clock with a constant coffee supply.

My conundrum is, I don't believe in God. I don't believe in a single self-aware entity with real agency. Yet I've seen God. I've felt God too. Anybody whose had a real spiritual experience would probably know what I'm talking about. Its real and its tangible.

In my brief escape from death (before life, and after life) I can see/feel God. When I die? I suspect I'll just end, just like theres nothing before when I was born. I think God is something that only touches the living, and in ways they're not expecting, yet I still don't believe in God. :thinking:

Chaos. The string of amazing events that has led to now. Our bodies are composed from the remnants of ancient dead stars. Exploding furnaces blown across expanses so unimaginable we can only assign numbers to sigify their size. The shiny new car part you just bought, everything. Our own agency blinds us from the sheer improbability of it all, but its true: we are a beautiful freak occurence. We view our planet from a pricise pin-point in time. We just happen to catch it at the moment when a jet-stream is lit up in the darkening purple sky in the autumn dusk. We see God. Maybe Chaos is my God. Maybe thats what I've felt. Maybe thats what has moved me. :dunno:

I was born to a Catholic family :down:. I've tried a couple different Christian/pseudo-Christian ideas :down:, checked out Buddhism :dunno:, talked to all the wierd hippies that hang out in this town:eh:, and I don't buy any of it. Not a word.

Yet I'm confident in my spirituality. I'm not sure what it is, precisely, but I know its there. I see God as a moment. A brief flash of glory that touches you so deeply you cant shake it. I've never felt God for more than couple seconds throughout my life, yet I can recall every moment (there are 5) God has been in my presence.

So I don't believe something I know exists? So I worship chaos? Maybe, I'm not really sure :loco: h:

 

looks like a butt

:EDIT: w/ hemroids.

:EDIT::EDIT: whats with the smilies in this thread?

 

weird. Can't really comment on this. Like, you've felt him like I have, and you see things the way I do. Eh, maybe we just need to kinda put point a with point b.

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I was born to a Catholic family :down:. I've tried a couple different Christian/pseudo-Christian ideas :down:, checked out Buddhism :dunno:, talked to all the wierd hippies that hang out in this town:eh:, and I don't buy any of it. Not a word.

Yet I'm confident in my spirituality. I'm not sure what it is, precisely, but I know its there. I see God as a moment. A brief flash of glory that touches you so deeply you cant shake it. I've never felt God for more than couple seconds throughout my life, yet I can recall every moment (there are 5) God has been in my presence.

So I don't believe something I know exists? So I worship chaos? Maybe, I'm not really sure :loco: h:

I just think you haven't been infused with the idea yet.

the other night was a big one for me. Almost a week ago, it was. And in all the coincidence in the night (and there was a butt-load of it), I got to talking my usual propaganda. We were watching magnolia, and weird things were happening. The color on the tv went from darkish to brightish, but it was kinda steady at first, and eventually, we could tie it in with things they were saying (on the tv, like they'd say something that could be light-hearted, and the color would be lightish, but then they'd say something dark, and the color would darken).

well, the more we watched, we finally paused it. We noticed the color kept going light and dark, and it wasn't part of the movie. Also, we paused it right when this lady on screen was moving her eyes, so it looked like she was possessed (white eyes). Very weird moment.

there was a girl there that night, this chick one of my friends was interested in, but lost his interest. Still, they talk alot, and as it turned out, that night was moving for her. She too is confused about reality, religion, and all that. She's actually from austrailia, and there's a whole bunch of coincidence behind her comming her, but still, there was a story she told my friend. A bad one, of her friend getting raped, and she felt responsible for not warning her (trust me, it could be taken that she was responsible), but the way she told the story made it seem like someone died. When she finally got to the climax, we were all like "wait, thats it?" Sure, raping is sad, and pathetic. But the idea behind it all is "it could be worse."

How you said you've felt gods presense, thats a strong idea. I know where you come from, since I've felt the same notion (as told in the story above, plus many many other times). It gets shivers down your back, and you kinda get a little light-headed. The weird thing is, I've noticed the feeling more and more lately.

while I'll disagree with your veiws on no god, tho, I'll say you're on the right path. Again, I didn't beleive in him. You can't just blindly beleive in something. You need a reason....

your time will come, as will most, I hope. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I think everyone will come to the idea. I hope for the better of society, anyways. I think we've gone to far to just throw it away.

the materialism has to end....

ms paint owned me. hard.

smilies are disabled in on-topic

 

So youre saying it would be beneficial if we all (or me) found a God to believe in? An organization of our spirituality? I feel like I'm already there. I feel like I don't need to know exactly what it is in order to understand it and use it to guide me spiritually.

I think the reason I can't buy into any all-encompassing world-views is the fact that its all so external. My religion is inside me. I don't think anyone could share it. The thoughts and guidelines that dictate my actions/reactions throughout the day are defined (much as they are in religion), but I don't think anyone else could live by the exact same guidelines.

Religions seem to be about community, about people, and about action/interaction. Thats not the way I see it. My spirituality guides me, but has no bearing on anyone apart from my direct interactions with them. Thats the way I like it.

To me, the notion of a universal understanding (one that seems so blatantly obvious ) that religions are one in the same, serve the same purpose, strive for the same goals, is impossible to propagate. People define themselves in binary oppositions. People maintain group identities that are constructed on dichotomies.... basically, religion harbors areas of extremism that cannot be broken. Its human nature, and its quintessentially the story of the human race.

Sounds like you're rooting for me to find a more structured sprituality? Like an actual religion?

 

not really *you* so much as everyone. I'm not second guessing you. I think we're actually kinda at the same level, but I want to apply this idea to the world, and actually make some things right...

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I think the reason I can't buy into any all-encompassing world-views is the fact that its all so external. My religion is inside me. I don't think anyone could share it. The thoughts and guidelines that dictate my actions/reactions throughout the day are defined (much as they are in religion), but I don't think anyone else could live by the exact same guidelines.

I understand. But the idea I'm preaching isn't the exact same guidelines. You'll notice how, even tho I preach one God, I allow room for other faiths. That still gives us individuality, and culture. Important things we NEED as humans.

but at the same time, we need the one god idea to give us similaritys, and kinda bring us togeather. I know there's no "one size fits all" meathod, but we just need to kinda understand:
- no one is always right
- everyone is sometimes wrong
- we're all equal, rich and poor, black and white, male or female
- we all have good traits and bad traits
- we're all nessisary as a whole, no matter our social/class level

but the rich need to quit thinking they're better than everyone. The poor need to quit thinking they're better people than the rich. Things like that. See the point I'm making?

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Religions seem to be about community, about people, and about action/interaction. Thats not the way I see it. My spirituality guides me, but has no bearing on anyone apart from my direct interactions with them. Thats the way I like it.

thats how it should be. After all, its the local idea that matters most.

One problem with this country, I feel, is the central government has too much power. I think if we were to allow the central gov. to work on things external to the country (war, global policy, things like that), and let the states control the people (heathcare, taxing, education, things like that), and let the united nations be the police power of the world (instead of us), then I think the world would be a better place.

its like the metric system. Everything is divided down, but it all inter-relates. Like sound waves relate with color waves.

but then again, we use the standard system (ironiclly, the only country that is "standard"). It breaks things down, too. But complexly. its not simplified.

see my point? reading my analogy?

pulling the idea to religion, I think we all know whats best for ourselves, but we need to understand whats best for our society, and thats not hurting each other on porpous, and if we do, appologize. If someone appologizes, forgive them. Move on and we shall learn. See the point?

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To me, the notion of a universal understanding (one that seems so blatantly obvious ) that religions are one in the same, serve the same purpose, strive for the same goals, is impossible to propagate. People define themselves in binary oppositions. People maintain group identities that are constructed on dichotomies.... basically, religion harbors areas of extremism that cannot be broken. Its human nature, and its quintessentially the story of the human race.

I obviously have more hope than you do

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Sounds like you're rooting for me to find a more structured sprituality? Like an actual religion?

not you, really. I just think we need to come to terms, and things will kinda trickle down and work out.

regardless, I want to get my idea's out there more. I want to spread the word, and I want to be able to get to the point where everyone (at least in this country) is listening to me and I can tell them whats up, and either they can listen and we can change, or they can ignore me, and God will probably end this all.

see, I'm thinking too high of myself...

 

I guess I'm a pessimist. I view what I said (about human nature, organized religion and extremism) as fact. Dichotomies are how we see the world around us, just as we constantly use stereotypes to comprehend the world around us. I can see past differences, but the problem is, someone so emboldened by their beliefs cannot. Thats the problem. Religion gives these extremists the right to hate, the right to judge and the right to deny forgiveness (which is ironic, because every religion preaches compassion and forgiveness). The righteousness of their actions, their secularism, and their animosity stems from the righteousness of their religious beliefs. I see organized religion as the most insurmountable barrier of mankind. You have to think about these things a lot when youre a historian h:

I don't want to dampen your zeal. Your idea is beautiful, and you are right to share it. These are just my interpretations.

:EDIT: I personally agree, for the most part, with your idea... I just don't think it can be universal. Too many people are intrenched in their systems of polarity.

Another flaw, as I see it, is that people must recognize a god, and be monotheistic.

The monotheistic part helps, its a way of creating a bridge between mindsets. Heck, most people believe theyre worshipping the same god, just a different way, and thats great.

The problem is, this theory shouldn't be god-centered. Not only so it applies for athiests, agnostics, dejected religious types, but because the principal stems from a mindset that needn't be religious.