Well for one, and in relation to this thread:

http://www.illusiveforces.com/stuff/Bush.mp3

This was a speach he gave in Buffalo, NY in 2003. The eaves-dropping program was already in effect even though it wasn't public yet.

 

lies, lies, and more lies...This administration is forcing a collection of personal data on an international basis. Not only are our personal lives investigated....Now, this administration wants to tap into international/European lives...and if they don't abide by our rule, they suffer....

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/31/wo...th&oref=slogin

And while you might argue, anyone that has ties to terrorists groups should be detained, you quickly forget how easy this makes our administrations monarchy....fascist dictatorship...work. If you argue this administration, you are are simply detained, and investigated...if history prooves me right, this is how Hitler started.

...and the "right" calls us comrads...

 

one thought after reading through these posts...the US will never come out victorious in Iraq...we ousted a regime that still weilds some power and is still at war with us and slowly pushing Iraq into a civil war, the normal population distrust at the very best but more likely hate us as we have always been the enemy, Iran is now pushing influence and supplying those who attack us, and now Iraq is a flush training ground for terrorists (where before Saddam ruthlessly cracked down on terrorists as they were a threat to his power)

this administration has been less than truthful and pushing a religious agenda which begs for intolerance of others...the media is going overboard but dubya is just getting what has been coming to him

 

Conspiracy, Conspiracy, and more conspiracy....

If there was an ounce of truth I would debate your post...but as there is not my effort is not required...

 

If that is your defeatest attitude then it is really sad. I wonder how the world would be different if Americans took that attitude during the Battle of the Bulge or the Japanese march through the Phillapenes?

Saddams regime has either all been killed or captured, there are only a handfull that have not been accounted for. The majority of those blowing shit up in Iraq are foreign terrorists, and if anyone thinks that us pulling out of Iraq will make that stop then I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale. I would much rather fight terrorists on the streets of Baghdad than on the streets of NYC. To think for one minute the War on Terrorism will simply not follow our troops home if we do not win it over there is shear ignorance. Just today there were 17 people arrested in Canada trying to plan and commit a terrorist attack. This war needs to be won and we need to do all that we can to win it, otherwise my son will be fighting this war and he is not yet 2.

 

first of all don't put words in my mouth...you clearly did not read my post properly and have labeled it some nonsense word "defeatist"...if that's the way you need to argue to label something then so be it...i'll keep a high road and not throw someone into some main bracket so you can write them off

2nd of all don't make irrelevant analogies to my post...WW2 was not the same as the IRAQ occupation by any means nor the same motivations...most importantly note that Iraqis by far dislike the US no matter the fact that we ousted Saddam, where Europe and the Phillipines (proper spelling) were overtaken by an agressor and we were the rescuer...plus don't even say that we are there to prevent terrorism...we are there for oil and you are lying to yourself if that wasn't our main motivation

man you sound like a fox news highlight "war on terrorism"

1st off...the bathist party still holds power and is part of the disruption...what proof do you have otherwise?...in fact the most unstable and unmanageable regions are where Saddam's most loyal followers are...you think b/c they found some 50 odd high ranking officials it's over?...think again

2nd...foreign terrorists are now in Iraq b/c of us!...they weren't there before b/c they were a threat to Saddam's power and he was ruthless with their treatment just like everyone else

3rd...some Iraqi's don't prefer americans but most hate us

4th...the taliban and al qaeda were in afghanistan and we had every right to invade in retaliation...however al qaeda was not in Iraq until after we ousted Saddam...in fact if you really want to go after those bastards Saudi Arabia is the foundation of al qaeda and Osama place of birth and instruction

5th...if you read my post properly instead of this knee jerk reaction post you'd see i'm discussing if we'd ever be successful (my answer is no)...i never made the slightest notion to pull out of iraq (another assumption you incorrectly made)...my main point is we should have never been there in the first place (Desert Storm was only validated as we freed Kuwait to asked for our help)

we have every right to defend ourselves but our retaliation must be just and firm...the Iraq occupation was never justified nor did we have a realistic chance of ever winning...we are there for oil...plain and simple

 

I will not put words in your mouth...

Sounds like you have resigned yourself to the fact we will be "defeated" in Iraq.

It is perfectly relevent...in WW2 we stuck with the fight and saw it through, whereas in Vietnam the public gave up even though the North Vietnamese never won a military victory. Do we want Iraq to turn out like WW2 or Vietnam? I know my choice.

Do you even watch Fox News??

The Baath (proper spelling ) party is illegal in Iraq, there may be remnants fighting against the coalition presence in Iraq but the majority are foreign fighters.

False! Abu Musab Al Zarqawi was given medical aid and treatment in Baghdad after being injured fighting coalition forces in Afghanistan. Abu Nidal was also given sanctuary in Iraq by Saddam. Both were there before the Iraq invasion in 2003.

According to who? The majority of the unbiased opinions I have read and listened too suggest otherwise.

See my response to #2. There were also terrorist training camps in Iraq and documentation that is now being translated from Saddam's government indicates there were ties to terrorists.

I did not make a knee jerk reaction. For your clarification I quoted you above and in the quote directly above this you validate my argument. Thank you. And if you had correctly read my post you would have clearly seen that I was not attributing pulling the troops out to you. Let me quote what I said...

Nowhere in my quote does it say, nor imply, "you".

You have every right to not agree with going to Iraq and are free to express your opinion thereof. However, while our troops are still in harms way I take great exception to people claiming they will be unsuccessful. You may dislike President Bush and his Administration, the reasons for going to war, and the fact that we did. But atleast support the troops so they can finish thier job victoriously and be able to come home.

 

you are overlooking a key element...the countries we came to the rescue for WANTED US TO SAVE THEM...hardly any Iraqis ever wanted us there and now we are an infidel occupying force and creating a government that is tainted by us...since the whole population dislikes us we can never be successful...so it's been 3 years since we "won" this war...remember "mission accomplished"...well fighting has gotten worse to the point the PM of Iraq has said they are slipping into civil war...so what happened after WW2 in Europe and in the Phillipines?...we were greeted as heroes given parades by the people and rewarded for our chivalry...what happened in Iraq after Saddam went down...the exact opposite

this just explains that we are not viewed as liberators in Iraq and never will be by the people there...we are just another enemy (one that replaced an enemy for the majority of the population [saddam])...we will never shift the iraqi's paradigm of who we are and what we are there for...in fact many interviews by those who were tortured and lost family to Saddam did not trust us...only those who gained immediate power wanted us there...whether political or economic

 

i may think we will never win this war but i'm realistic as to our chances

in fact you can pay your taxes towards a nice 10 year + occupation of Iraq to convince them otherwise...i'd rather spend that $80+ billion a year to fix our problems at home...like pay down our highest gov't deficit on record...find a realistic solution to healthcare and insurance that is out of control...coming up with a realistic solution to our borders and so on

 

Those are all great things as soon as we are able to defeat terrorists. Doing all those things means nothing if 9/11 becomes a regular occurance. Fighting terrorists where they live and not where we do is a safer alternative.

I would much rather countries take the tract of Libya, but if they choose to be stubborn like Saddam then war is the last resort. If the French really wanted to stick it to the US before the war they would have convinced Saddam and has sons to step down and leave the country, rather than whisper to us they were backing the moves to overthrow him and whispering to him they would prevent us from doing so.