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Old Oct 4, 2005 | 05:44 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by asianautica
S2000 is the only FR platform from Honda, so what other RWD Honda was the F series engine in? Why can't you gain power or displacement from the K series? Just look at aftermarket and you can really see how much more potential the K has compare to the F. I/H/E in the current S2k barely gain anything. But I/H/E in a RSX-s put you near 200WHP already. If they tune the K20 to the level of tune of the current S2k, I'm sure they can get 210-220WHP easily. That puts it around 250-260Hp already. 210-220WHP is not hard at all to obtain from the K20.
I'm not sure I understand the question, the S2000 has an F series engine, making it the RWD Honda with an F series engine.

So great you put out a 250 HP K series derivative engine for a RWD platform. The S2000's engine runs 240 HP already. You gained 10 HP at best. As a company, you just spent several hundred thousand dollars, if not millions a) redesigning the K-series engine to run in the correct direction and mount longitudinally in a car b) redesigning a transmission to mate to the K series engine (as well as the driveshafts, differentials, and axles) c) Testing this engine to make sure it doesn't blow up or break down d) Getting this engine to pass emissions in 50 states e) retooling production lines to make this new engine and transmission and whatever supporting hardware is involved

Also, your method of upping K series power is one that a car modifier would take. You have to remember that these cars are geared for the general (at least well off) public; not everyone wants to hear their exhaust note or ride in a car where the idle is obnoxiously loud. So then, realistically, I would say at best a K-series could put out is about 240 hp at the crank....just like the F-series engine you are trying to replace. It is not a financially viable option.
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Old Oct 4, 2005 | 05:51 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Kestrel
I'm not sure I understand the question, the S2000 has an F series engine, making it the RWD Honda with an F series engine.

So great you put out a 250 HP K series derivative engine for a RWD platform. The S2000's engine runs 240 HP already. You gained 10 HP at best. As a company, you just spent several hundred thousand dollars, if not millions a) redesigning the K-series engine to run in the correct direction and mount longitudinally in a car b) redesigning a transmission to mate to the K series engine (as well as the driveshafts, differentials, and axles) c) Testing this engine to make sure it doesn't blow up or break down d) Getting this engine to pass emissions in 50 states e) retooling production lines to make this new engine and transmission and whatever supporting hardware is involved

Also, your method of upping K series power is one that a car modifier would take. You have to remember that these cars are geared for the general (at least well off) public; not everyone wants to hear their exhaust note or ride in a car where the idle is obnoxiously loud. So then, realistically, I would say at best a K-series could put out is about 240 hp at the crank....just like the F-series engine you are trying to replace. It is not a financially viable option.
My only reason for bringing in I/H/E is to show the potential of the engine. When the K20 breath well enough like the F20, they make similar power. But the engine of the F20 is much more highly tuned. So, all I'm saying is if the K20 gets that level of tuning, it can make more power. Not to mention much better low end tq due to i-VTEC. But whatever, for all we know, Honda can just drop the S2k all together.
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Old Oct 4, 2005 | 05:58 PM
  #43  
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Yet there's a reason that the K20 is not tuned to it's full power potential by Honda, which I'm sure has many more experts in tuning than we will find on this board. One of which, if I had to guess, is emissions, the other being NVH. My point is that an engine tuned to high power per liter output is not one that is widely marketable, hence why I think that a RWD K-series derivative is just a waste of money. The F22C series, even if it is slightly older, is a much more viable candidate.

In all honesty, if Acura is to play with the big boys in the upscale car segment, it needs to develop a V6 or V8 RWD platform. Unfortunately, most car enthusiasts scoff at FWD cars as being too econobox and poor handling (which is not necessarily true), and most people spending 30K or more would like to see high-200 or low-300 HP engines in their cars....very difficult to do with a 4 cylinder.
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Old Oct 4, 2005 | 06:20 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Kestrel
Yet there's a reason that the K20 is not tuned to it's full power potential by Honda, which I'm sure has many more experts in tuning than we will find on this board. One of which, if I had to guess, is emissions, the other being NVH. My point is that an engine tuned to high power per liter output is not one that is widely marketable, hence why I think that a RWD K-series derivative is just a waste of money. The F22C series, even if it is slightly older, is a much more viable candidate.

In all honesty, if Acura is to play with the big boys in the upscale car segment, it needs to develop a V6 or V8 RWD platform. Unfortunately, most car enthusiasts scoff at FWD cars as being too econobox and poor handling (which is not necessarily true), and most people spending 30K or more would like to see high-200 or low-300 HP engines in their cars....very difficult to do with a 4 cylinder.

they designed the f series to be rwd they can do it with the k series...

and the point would to be not increasing peak hp buy hp and tq numbers across the band.
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Old Oct 4, 2005 | 06:39 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by sherwood
they designed the f series to be rwd they can do it with the k series...

and the point would to be not increasing peak hp buy hp and tq numbers across the band.
I have no doubt Honda has the capability to design a K-series RWD platform. I'm saying that it is not the best place for them to put their money.
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Old Oct 4, 2005 | 07:22 PM
  #46  
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they are redesigning the RSX for 2007
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Old Oct 4, 2005 | 07:24 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Kestrel
I have no doubt Honda has the capability to design a K-series RWD platform. I'm saying that it is not the best place for them to put their money.
Any developement in the S2k is not a good place for them to put their $$. It sell less than 1000 unit a month. They can either share platform/engine/drivetrain, which mean they would have to convert all of Acura to RWD (or at least most) or they can continue making the S2k a specialty car and doesn't share any part w/ any of their mainstream cars. If they keep the S2k the way it is, i.e. no sharing, then any developement would not yield the best return.
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Old Oct 4, 2005 | 07:54 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by asianautica
Any developement in the S2k is not a good place for them to put their $$. It sell less than 1000 unit a month. They can either share platform/engine/drivetrain, which mean they would have to convert all of Acura to RWD (or at least most) or they can continue making the S2k a specialty car and doesn't share any part w/ any of their mainstream cars. If they keep the S2k the way it is, i.e. no sharing, then any developement would not yield the best return.
the s2000 is limited to 5000 units annually in north america, so there's a very good reason why it sells less than 1000 units a month. by limiting the production of the car, they can cut costs of a wider mass production and also raise its market value.

they don't have to share parts 100% of the time to remain profitable for each model they sell. sure, they could save more money by doing so, but that doesn't necessitate it in order to maintain development. as long as the product is profitable, they have good reason to keep developing it.

they can still share parts in a limited capacity with the S2000, but still keep it's image up (even with enthusiasts). by parts sharing, i don't mean physically using the exact same transmission, chassis, etc in more than one model. but they can use parts and technology developed for one model towards another. i'm thinking more in terms of how the accord is related to the MDX or new RL. the S2000 can remain "specialized" and unique, but they can still use technologies and such in other cars.

the S2000 also does a great deal for honda's image. think about the splash it made when it debuted. honda hadn't had a real iconic model in the US until then (not under the honda badge, anyway). no one looks at the S2000 as "just a honda." they also had been getting rid of their performance oriented models for a few years, with the death of the prelude, lack luster civic Si... it's great for them to have that kind of car in their lineup. as long as they don't water it down, this is also a very good argument for keeping it around. it's an excellent marketing tool.

besides which, the S2000 has a lot of great features that were developed specifically for it. it would be quite an enormous waste to keep all of that from disseminating throughout other cars in the future.
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Old Oct 4, 2005 | 11:28 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by mayonaise
the s2000 is limited to 5000 units annually in north america, so there's a very good reason why it sells less than 1000 units a month. by limiting the production of the car, they can cut costs of a wider mass production and also raise its market value.

they don't have to share parts 100% of the time to remain profitable for each model they sell. sure, they could save more money by doing so, but that doesn't necessitate it in order to maintain development. as long as the product is profitable, they have good reason to keep developing it.

they can still share parts in a limited capacity with the S2000, but still keep it's image up (even with enthusiasts). by parts sharing, i don't mean physically using the exact same transmission, chassis, etc in more than one model. but they can use parts and technology developed for one model towards another. i'm thinking more in terms of how the accord is related to the MDX or new RL. the S2000 can remain "specialized" and unique, but they can still use technologies and such in other cars.

the S2000 also does a great deal for honda's image. think about the splash it made when it debuted. honda hadn't had a real iconic model in the US until then (not under the honda badge, anyway). no one looks at the S2000 as "just a honda." they also had been getting rid of their performance oriented models for a few years, with the death of the prelude, lack luster civic Si... it's great for them to have that kind of car in their lineup. as long as they don't water it down, this is also a very good argument for keeping it around. it's an excellent marketing tool.

besides which, the S2000 has a lot of great features that were developed specifically for it. it would be quite an enormous waste to keep all of that from disseminating throughout other cars in the future.
I know that the S2k is Honda's halo car. All I'm saying is if it doesn't share parts w/ other cars like the 350Z does or the Z4 does, then even if it Honda do make a profit from it, it won't be anywhere near worth it in $ term. But in term of a halo car and bringing traffic into the showroom and bring enthusiasm to the brand, then it's doing quite well.
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Old Oct 5, 2005 | 08:35 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by iownzadc2
they are redesigning the RSX for 2007
you got a source for that?
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