I see your point in the connection between the NSX and the rest of the line up. I'm just trying to say it takes more than an engine to link two cars together. The NSX is hand built on a platform that's not shared w/ any other which is MR. Technology trickles down starting with the NSX, that's true, I'm not denying that. VTEC started w/ the NSX. I'm just saying you look at the NSX and you see a piece of art and a nicely hand crafted super car. While you look at the rest of the Acura line, all you see is another sport luxury sedan/coupe. If you look at company like Benz and BMW, their AMG and M devision brings the performance image to the brand, yet their AMG and M model is based from a production car. That's why I say the NSX doesn't have much connection with the rest of the line up.

The Q45 is a disappointment in sales, no doubt about that but it's infinity flagship and it's their icon car. It stands for performance/HP, and technology/gadgets. I don't know if the M45 will be a money loser or not because it's just based off a car that's been built in japan for the last 3 or 4 years so it doesn't cost them any in the R&D part, unlike the Q45. Also, it's quite hard to predict how well it'll do. If you just look at the fact, the M45 cost about the same as the RL and the GS300 but it has a V8 with almost all the luxury of the Q45. So only time will tell whether it'll be a disappointment like the Q45 or not.

The NSX is here in the US as Acura. Do you think people would buy a $90k honda? Probably not but they would buy $90k acura. People probably wouldn't buy a $90k Nissan or Toyota either but they would buy a $90k Infiniti and Lexus. Nissan and Toyota do have similar cars to the NSX, which is the Supra and the Skyline. The skyline was a Japan only car. The supra was marketed differently. If you look at performance, the Supra is quite similar to the NSX but the Supra was massed produced and Toyota made profit from it. When they stop making profit from it, they discontinue it. I think Acura has always been loosing money on every NSX they sell.

Infiniti was lost most of its year trying to be like Lexus. Lexus tries to project a Japanese version of Benz. Now, Infiniti is trying to project a Japanese version of BMW. I do agree with you that Nissan/Toyota/Honda all build their car on different philosophy and image.

Sorry for the long post.

 

AN,

No need to appologize for a long post, sometimes they are needed and it was well written. The only thing I disagree on thought is whether or not someone would buy a $90K Honda or Acura, and that Nissan and Infiniti had cars that were of the same caliber as the NSX.

I for one don't care what the NSX is called or who the company is that it is sold under. The NSX is a great car that would have sold under the Honda name just as well as under the Acura name. When a car is built as well as the NSX it does not matter what you call it.

Also the Supra was a mass produced production car on an automated assembly line...not sure about the Skyline but doesn't the Skyline share its frame with another Nissan? Sorry I am not real familiar with the Skyline. But for arguments sake I will only use the Supra. While the Supra did have similar or better performance numbers over the NSX you cannot beat the build quality of the NSX. The whole thing is on a lightweight aluminum frame and is handbuilt...Toyota cannot say that about the Supra. I don't look at the Supra in the same light as the NSX.

 

The reason why I say most people would not buy $90k Honda is not because the car would be bad under Honda name plate but rather the service. I'm not too sure about Acura dealer vs Honda dealer, but my experience w/ Infiniti dealer is 100X better than Nissan dealer. Infiniti sales tactic as well as many other luxury brand are alot more relax and give the buyer alot more respect. I feel alot more comfortable there and I'm not being haggle (sp?) for the sale. Also service is another story. Nissan as well as I assume Honda and Toyota would not just give you a loner car. While Acura, Inifiniti and many other luxury company would give you a loaner car when you bring your car in for a service. It's those little stuff that make a person willing to put down $90k for a car.

About the Supra, the ultimate goal is quite similar to the NSX. Have a really fast sport car. The execution is quite different though. In term of performance they're the same, but Toyota want a mass produced car that can make them profit as well as give them a performance image. While the NSX is hand built for quality. It also give Acura a performance image but it doesn't not bring in profit like the Supra did as well as not mass produced. Maybe that's one of the reason why NSX is still around while Supra isn't. Lets say you loose a few grand per car you sell, since the NSX only sell about 200 cars a year, Honda can handle those loses for the image. While mass produced cars like Supra, RX-7 and Z can't because with the same loses per car, it's too great of a lose total when they sell thousands of those cars.

My point about Skyline and Supra were that they are very fast sport car and they're in the same league performance wise to the NSX. The famous Skyline GT-R share its frame with the regular skyline which is what the G35 replaced. In Japan, the G35 is called the Skyline. However, the chasis is the only thing that's the same between the regular Skyline and the GT-R. From now on, the GT-R will have it's own name and it's no longer a Skyline GT-R, just GT-R.

I personally see the NSX, RX-7, Skyline, and Supra under the same group. I.E. top performance from the respective company.

 

Very, very good discussion guys. I really agree with everyone here, kazi, AN, and Viggen.

Viggen, you're right bro, the NSX is truly an automotive marvel. If it weren't for the NSX, do you think you could use a Porsche 996 Turbo as a daily driver? Or even think of doing it with a Ferrari 360? I think not. The change from the 993 to 996 interior is the biggest step in Porsche history, all due to the NSX IMO. Now it has some luxury.

AN, I agree with everything you said, especially about the Q45/M45. I predict it will sell well because, as you said, it is the Q luxury and performance for less. Of course, maybe a reason the Q doesn't sell is not because it is inferior, but because it is an Infiniti? However, I take issue with the skyline/Supra thing. The Skyline and Supra are modern muscle cars. The NSX has no equal...it was never about horsepower, it was about refinement, handling, styling, and making a STATEMENT. A Statement that the HMC is the best engine manufacturer in the world and has quality, refinement, and style to match it.

I'm not gonna reply to any previous posts because they've all been beat to death, but kazi, that was one of the best posts I've ever read :fawk:

 

since the m45 is a new model and the RL and gs300 are pretty old, can we wait and see what the next RL and gs will offer?

 

You're probably right, Infiniti doesn't know how to market the Q45. They started advertising it when it came out so the sale were ok, but then they just stopped all together and the sales starts falling.

I don't agree with you about the Skyline and Supra statement though. I don't think they are modern muscle cars at all. All three are 6 cylinders. Skyline is a 2.6L, Supra is 3.0L (?), and NSX is 3.2L. So how can you say the other two are modern muscle cars? NSX has the largest displacement and NSX is the newest out of the three. Who ever said it's about HP anyways, all three are similar in HP and their performance are similar as well. The Skyline and Supra are no handling slouch either. The Skyline has AWD w/ 4 wheel steering. The Skyline is a marval of engineering and design for Nissan and same goes for the Supra. Toyota and Nissan can say the same about their car as well and their statement is just as valid. The Skyline and Supra engine can output 600HP on stock internal with no problem. Wouldn't you say that's an engineering marvel? Both engine after strengthening can also reach 1000HP with some effort. All that from an engine that's 3L or less. I say that's pretty amazing to me. They also rev pretty high as well. Not sure what the supra red like is at but I think the Skyline red line is 8000+ RPM. Styling is quite subjective. Many people love the look of the Skyline and the Supra. Those two car can pack 4 people and still haul a$$.

 

I know what they won't be offering. A 300+HP V8. Honda doesn't have a V8 and Lexus already have a V8 GS430 so it won't make the GS300 a V8. Basically, the M45 is the GS430 competitor with the GS300 price. The car itself is great, but whether Infiniti can market it or not is a different story.

 

You misunderstood my point entirely. The Supra and Skyline are based on power (which has nothing to do with engine displacement), and the NSX is built on finesse.

It all depends on what you consider a marvel, but the Supra and Skyline never made a very big impact in Stuttgart or Modena. They certainly didn't get memos saying that maybe there was another way this time around.

Pure power is not impressive to me. You just contradicted yourself saying they aren't muscle cars when you talk about how many horsies their intrnals can take. I never said they were handling slouches. A new Skyline would hand an NSX its ass on the track. But this is a 12 year old NSX. BTW, all 3 are similiar in horsepower because of Japan's gentleman's agreement. You and I both know the newer skylines pack far more than 290 horsepower and they come from the factory made to be modified.

We both have different opinions on 3 very different cars, no point in typing any more since we both understand each other.

 

Since we understand each other, then it's all cool. My statement about the horsies was just to prove that they're engineering marvel, so much power from such a small engine. My definition of muscle cars are large displacement V8s but I guess yours is different. It's call cool. To me these debate are fun even if it doesn't go anywhere. It something to pass time with.

 

Hell yes, it's alot of fun, but it gets to the point where you can only drive your point in so much

Just for kicks, my definition of a muscle car is anything that puts horsepower over everything else. Engine displacement doesn't matter to me.

BTW, you've been making some really good posts, keep it up bro