That's pretty much where I'm at with this. Part of the fun lies in the challenge of learning a car's personality, regardless of it's performance numbers. RWD, FWD, AWD, Turbos, VTEC, Torque, Revs... there's fun to be had somewhere with everything. But people blind themselves with bias and hate, like their car becomes some sort of monotheistic religion for them.

Hmmm, excellent point. Although I'd argue that SUVs aren't any safer (and are often worse) in a single-vehicle crash. SUVs simply make it more likely you'll kill car drivers in exchange for your own safety.

The 2003 Ex actually has excellent crash ratings, which is one of the reasons we bought it. Oddly, although my Eclipse feels like a dang tank in comparison, it's a bloody deathtrap (if hit in the side). Weight <> Safety I suppose.

The sedan ain't so bad. Pretty much like an old accord.

LOL, yes, it's a GS-T. But you can't blame the understeer entirely on the configuration, since the darn civic turns in just fine. I'm guessing the Eclipse's heavy motor and mounting position give it a nasty "polar moment of inertia" compared to the civic and it's teeny tiny engine. I've debated slapping some Teins and low-profile tires on it, but it seems like a poor foundation to build on. It's been years since I've driven a GSX, so I don't remember if it's significantly better (aside from exiting corners).

 

YES! I can blame the understeer entirely on its configuration. The point where you really need traction isn't during turn-in. It regulates how fast you can take the turn, and FWD DSMs are tricky to control in a turn because they produce so damn much torque. That will bust your wheels loose leaving you understeering without much effort. A 3000lb car will turn in MUCH differently than a 2000lb hatchback. You really have to throw a DSM around because they're heavy cars.

An AWD car doesn't understeer. The reason why they're such good handling cars isn't just because they lay down power on all 4 wheels... AWD DSM's all have 3 differentials, and on a 92.5-99 production date car, the rear is Limited Slip. So you get the ability to do power slides and drifts. None of the FWD cars have a limited slip center differential. No civic hatches I know of in the US come with a LSD tranny. And with a FWD transaxle with different lenth axles, this results in wheel-hop, 1-wheel burnouts, and lots of understeer. A 210 hp Civic hatch would certainly suffer the same problems as a GS-T, just minus the weight of all the luxury interior options and electronics.

But GS-T's make up for what they lack in traction and drivetrain design (and thus, 60' times) with top-end acceleration. A GS-T will go through 3rd 4th and 5th a hell of a lot faster than a GSX will. IF you can make it stick, it is capable of exceeding an equally-equipped AWD's times. Transfer cases, viscous couplings, driveshafts, 2 extra differentials and 2 more axles is an awful lot of rotating mass for the same engine to push. But the ability to push them is why a stock 3300lb GSX will flip 1.8 60' times... but they're much more expensive cars to drive maintenance-wise. There's a lot more crap on them to break.

Fuel economy and maintenance costs are why civics kick ass.

You've got to be careful with your comparisons. Go drive an EVO VIII and see what a 4g63 does with AWD. It's more of a grown-up racer's car. And you'll like the fact that it comes with Recaro racing seats, Brembo 4-pot calipers, Spearco FMIC, carbon fiber body treatments, OZ wheels, and a de-tuned 276hp 4g63. It's a rally car that you can hang a license plate on. I bet it costs more to drive than a Civic would, too. Maintenance, gas, insurance, everything...

While you're at the dealer, schedule an appointment to get your GS-T's front lower control arms replaced for free. Lack of response from the wheel makes me think you didn't get the LCA recall performed, and your front suspension is loose. It's a safety recall. It made an enormous difference on every 2g DSM I've owned, and prevents you from shelling out big bucks on body work when they finally give.

 

Well, it's just that drive wheels and LSDs don't matter much when braking into a corner, or simply turning into one. I realize any FWD car will understeer under power, but that doesn't mean it has to be an oil tanker otherwise.

The civic responds to my feet and hands. Turn the wheel, and it bites in and turns. Lift a little in a corner, and the tail gets looser... squeeze back some throttle, and it washes out again... do it right, and you're in a nice drift. If the civic had 210hp, it'd be more difficult to handle under power, but turn-in would still feel snappy.

My GS-T just understeers. Period. Under throttle, lifting off throttle, braking into a corner... understeer. Aside from advantages when powering out of a corner, the GSX probably also has a better weight distribution, with all that drive gear in the center/rear.

I drove an Evo. Again. Again. Again. Again. And... again. My favorite part about the Evo wasn't the power... it was the turn-in, the way it responded instantly to every movement of the steering wheel. I also loved the perfect driving position and pedal placement, grippy seats, and decent shifter.

Which brings me full-circle with this thread, because on the way home from one of the Evo test drives, I caught myself saying to my wife, "The Evo is amazing to drive, it turns in so quick, and the driving position is perfect... you know, like your civic."

Which is when I started thinking hmmmm, why pay 28K for an Evo, when I can get my favorite parts in a 16K Civic? Both have that great sedan driving position. Both have grippy seats (the 03 civic uses velcro as seat fabric). The Evo is split 60/40, the civic 59/41, both are mcpherson/multilink suspensions. The civic already tucks in quickly, so I'm guessing the engine is both light AND pushed back behind the front wheels. All it seems to need are tires and stiffer suspension components to be even MORE fun.

Don't get me wrong, the Evo is a fantastic car to drive. But I'm not so sure I want one as my daily driver. Hideous gauge cluster, rental-car interior, rock-hard suspension, mitsubishi reliability worries... I gotta pass for now.

It's interesting: whenever we drive into town (a 15 mile drive), we take all the twisty backroads. It involves lots of right and left turns, some twisty parts, some straights. And we invariably ALWAYS take the Civic, simply because it FEELS faster. You can toss it around interesections like a toy, heel-and-toe into every corner, wind it out down the straight. The eclipse, OTOH, wallows and complains every time I try and turn it. Sure, it blasts down the straights... but I live for the corners

P.S. Did the Eclipse recalls

 

Exactly.



I love the body style of the new civic sedan. Do you want a new car or used car? If used then I would definetly suggest looking into an Integra GSR since it has more power than the civic and handles better as well. It will handle much better than your eclipse but not be as much of a power letdown as the civic will be. Either way you can't go wrong since both are awesome cars.

 

He wasn't driving a civic in that movie h:

 

There you go. What you pay $28k for is the lightweight feel and handling from an otherwise heavy AWD car that makes more power than 2 Civic EX's combined. That thing will chew up and spit out any brand new civic for, of course, more than a civic costs because it's a lot more car.

Reliability? Are you shopping for a race car or an economy car?

I don't believe you've test driven one, or you wouldn't have used it in the same post. I gotta throw a :bs: on that one.

There simply is no comparison. That Evo will tripple-bus-length your civic off the line, and pass your civic on the inside lane of an exit ramp sideways while your civic understeers. If you didn't allow the room, the EVO could pass you on the grass and still keep traction, leaving you going "that bastard just showered my car with dirt and gravel!"

Like I said before, be careful which car you compare a civic to. A civic doesn't compare to an EVO in any way except that they both come in a 4-door and have 4 cylinders. In no way is a civic built to be a rally car. I wonder why Honda doesn't compete in WRC? Hmmmm.

Your DSM's handling is all because it's wrong-wheel drive. The whole chassis is different. The brakes are smaller. The gas tank is in a different spot, and is a different size and shape. Everything behind the rear seat is different. The ECU is governed, the options package is different. ABS is not standard equipment. Neither is leather, or the 220w 6-speaker Infinity audio system with CD changer, or cruise controll, though most of them had that anyway. There's no such thing as a "top of the line" FWD model. If you don't believe me, look up the option codes of your VIN # and see which ones are GS-T's. Sell that thing while you still can and get what you want.

Bottom line of this thread = you get what you pay for. If you want real performance, it costs money. I don't think there's anything at all that's EVO-like about any new civic's handling. That's just ludicrous. Brakes? NO! Wheels? NO! AWD? NO! Turbocharged +276hp? NO! ANY standard racing parts? NO! Discounting its power just means you completely missed the greatest aspect of the whole car and aren't willing to admit it's actually far superior. Whether that's because you don't need it or you're afraid of it, I dunno.

My first reply was that you're just old enough to be complaining about a DSM. I'm stickin' with that. 40's not too old for a civic if that's all you need. You need to stop comparing civics to non-FWD economy cars like BMers, EVO's, Benz's (that people on this board own) saying it's superior. That's moronic. And you're wrong. If you think your civic is a EVO, then why tell us that? I know better anyway.

It's SOOOOOO time for this thread to die. I don't know what you're trying to prove, but it's not based on fact.

 

:ugh:
There's also such a thing as a fun-to-drive economy car and a taxing-to-drive race car. So I have to say I disagree, to the average Joe, the greatest aspect of the EVO shouldn't be it's turbocharged 276+hp, but it's enjoyable nature. (And this is even after I admit to never having driven an EVO)

CivicEX, I don't beleive you are too old to have fun in a Civic. In fact, I think there are two problems with the repsonses from Jkan2001 and Jafro.

1.) Drag racing is in their blood. They both had/have modified turbo cars that they've put a lot of time, money, and effort into. I'm not saying they don't live for corners but their hearts are in the quartermile and/or beating the guy in the next lane.

2.) They are also on the defensive. For one thing, you criticized your DSM and for another you criticized expensive "luxury" car owners. And as you've already seen, you can guess what they each drive.

Comparing a civic to a much more expensive sports car may seem ludicrous but comparing the fun you have driving a civic to the fun you have driving a sports car isn't. There's one thing that impressive numbers in magazines and brilliant ad copy can't measure for you, and that's the plain ol' fun of driving the car yourself. I know what you mean about how nice the weight transfer in a civic feels.

Just to say, I agree with Jafro here:
In fact, the question may not be what car you drive but where you're doing your driving. After reading your descriptions...
...I've gotta ask, have you tried autocross or HPDE's/open trackdays?

 

Exactly!!! Thank you for saying that - and others for similar posts. Mind if I print it out and post it on the fridge?

I read the other mean posts before leaving work. I couldn't shake this awful, sick feeling in my stomach the whole drive home. I couldn't figure out why I seem to be making a couple people so MAD, why I provoked such mean-spirited responses. The more I try to clarify, the meaner they get.

I was just trying to suggest that the civic is a fun car too, and doesn't have to be thought of as "settling" in any way.

Oh yes... probably 50+ autoxes, half-dozen track events... most fun I've ever had!!! But here's a clue: every one of them was in my old CRX, years ago. I've never had the Eclipse on the track or in an autox. Go figure.

 

wowwwwwww!!!!!a civic isn`t a M3 :stupid: or a EVO VIII.Where you find that, :lmao: big brains????Honda and Civic owners can be the kid who just starts to learn to drive as can be your wife as can be a family father because it is NOT,NOT :nono: because if it is fast or economic or smaller or bigger,once for all it is BECAUSE WE FEEL GREAT DRIVING IT :yay: .Is it so hard to see ?But if you dont like japanese cars,if yuo prefer boats with wheels,go on,good luck!!!But to have a civic and enjoy it it is for any age,any sex,any country,any part of the world,uffffffffDid you get it??? thanks...

 

:lmao: Feel free to post it on the fridge.

I had a feeling you had such driving experience. That's awesome to hear.