turbo si help!!!!!
BOOST GOD
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,372
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From: NL CT
chipping is just another tool to tune, it helps if you can custom write chips like I can. But even so the ability to manipulate sensors, revlimits, vtec crossover, for the layman is nice.
O2 sensors measure the pressure of oxygen in the exhaust gas, ****ing get over it: here
but even beyond all of that, an OBD1 system will eliminate the 2nd 02 sensor location behind his cat, which is causing problems (we think).
However, as it stands the AFC hack is a pretty decent way to tune for a turbo. The Honda ECU maps don't have the enough resolution (they cut out at a very low MAP, to make them less usefull for turbo tuning)
Now if someone was ingenius enough to code a rom that realized when you reached the end of the millibar table, and then jumped to a routine, that used a multiplier with the start of the fuel/ignition map, that would be quite a hack
And your contradicting yourself, if the chip does not suite your purpose, you can tune around it with the AFC. However you will definitly benefit from the more agressive fuel curves.
Careful though, california people you have shitty gas, so you probably want to couple the turbo with colder/or less gapped plugs.
(see 1stgencrxer, I'm trying to be more mindful of peoples locations)
And WHO exactly spends most of their time in open-loop operation??? Unless you race everywhere, you probably spend quite a bit of time at partial throttles...
OH, and the GSR ecu is fine, it'll run P28 roms, no problemo, and if you got it for a good price, congrats, check out what the P72 goes for on ebay, might be worth your while to sell it and grab a P28, plenty of off the shelf chips available for that one.
-PHiZ
O2 sensors measure the pressure of oxygen in the exhaust gas, ****ing get over it: here
but even beyond all of that, an OBD1 system will eliminate the 2nd 02 sensor location behind his cat, which is causing problems (we think).
However, as it stands the AFC hack is a pretty decent way to tune for a turbo. The Honda ECU maps don't have the enough resolution (they cut out at a very low MAP, to make them less usefull for turbo tuning)
Now if someone was ingenius enough to code a rom that realized when you reached the end of the millibar table, and then jumped to a routine, that used a multiplier with the start of the fuel/ignition map, that would be quite a hack
And your contradicting yourself, if the chip does not suite your purpose, you can tune around it with the AFC. However you will definitly benefit from the more agressive fuel curves.
Careful though, california people you have shitty gas, so you probably want to couple the turbo with colder/or less gapped plugs.
(see 1stgencrxer, I'm trying to be more mindful of peoples locations)
And WHO exactly spends most of their time in open-loop operation??? Unless you race everywhere, you probably spend quite a bit of time at partial throttles...
OH, and the GSR ecu is fine, it'll run P28 roms, no problemo, and if you got it for a good price, congrats, check out what the P72 goes for on ebay, might be worth your while to sell it and grab a P28, plenty of off the shelf chips available for that one.
-PHiZ
Senior Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,052
Likes: 0
From: Long Island, NY
Originally posted by blacklude97
well, because of obd2 it senses the problem and is trying to fix it , which is trying to make me run lean. with obd1 it will sense the problem and give me a cel , but it wont try to fix it.
well, because of obd2 it senses the problem and is trying to fix it , which is trying to make me run lean. with obd1 it will sense the problem and give me a cel , but it wont try to fix it.
i believe some of the only differences between OBD2 and OBD1 is the type of sensors and the way that the ecu displays troubleshooting information, as well as emissions control and what not
i know for a fact that an obd1 ecu will attempt to correct the mixture based on input from the O2 sensor (i drove my h22a1 around with h23a1 injectors for 2 months, and got an O2 code whenever i let it idle for too long or gave it less than full throttle during acceleration)
obd1 knock sensor is also a good example, on the h23a1 or h22a1 (same sensor) the engine will retard timing if it detects pre-detonation in the block. this is the main reason high compression honda engines have this sensor, so that the ecu can modify the timing to protect the engine.
~boomer
Wannabe yuppie
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 25,918
Likes: 0
From: Madison, WI
Originally posted by PHiZ
chipping is just another tool to tune, it helps if you can custom write chips like I can. But even so the ability to manipulate sensors, revlimits, vtec crossover, for the layman is nice.
O2 sensors measure the pressure of oxygen in the exhaust gas, ****ing get over it: here
but even beyond all of that, an OBD1 system will eliminate the 2nd 02 sensor location behind his cat, which is causing problems (we think).
However, as it stands the AFC hack is a pretty decent way to tune for a turbo. The Honda ECU maps don't have the enough resolution (they cut out at a very low MAP, to make them less usefull for turbo tuning)
Now if someone was ingenius enough to code a rom that realized when you reached the end of the millibar table, and then jumped to a routine, that used a multiplier with the start of the fuel/ignition map, that would be quite a hack
And your contradicting yourself, if the chip does not suite your purpose, you can tune around it with the AFC. However you will definitly benefit from the more agressive fuel curves.
Careful though, california people you have shitty gas, so you probably want to couple the turbo with colder/or less gapped plugs.
(see 1stgencrxer, I'm trying to be more mindful of peoples locations)
And WHO exactly spends most of their time in open-loop operation??? Unless you race everywhere, you probably spend quite a bit of time at partial throttles...
OH, and the GSR ecu is fine, it'll run P28 roms, no problemo, and if you got it for a good price, congrats, check out what the P72 goes for on ebay, might be worth your while to sell it and grab a P28, plenty of off the shelf chips available for that one.
-PHiZ
chipping is just another tool to tune, it helps if you can custom write chips like I can. But even so the ability to manipulate sensors, revlimits, vtec crossover, for the layman is nice.
O2 sensors measure the pressure of oxygen in the exhaust gas, ****ing get over it: here
but even beyond all of that, an OBD1 system will eliminate the 2nd 02 sensor location behind his cat, which is causing problems (we think).
However, as it stands the AFC hack is a pretty decent way to tune for a turbo. The Honda ECU maps don't have the enough resolution (they cut out at a very low MAP, to make them less usefull for turbo tuning)
Now if someone was ingenius enough to code a rom that realized when you reached the end of the millibar table, and then jumped to a routine, that used a multiplier with the start of the fuel/ignition map, that would be quite a hack
And your contradicting yourself, if the chip does not suite your purpose, you can tune around it with the AFC. However you will definitly benefit from the more agressive fuel curves.
Careful though, california people you have shitty gas, so you probably want to couple the turbo with colder/or less gapped plugs.
(see 1stgencrxer, I'm trying to be more mindful of peoples locations)
And WHO exactly spends most of their time in open-loop operation??? Unless you race everywhere, you probably spend quite a bit of time at partial throttles...
OH, and the GSR ecu is fine, it'll run P28 roms, no problemo, and if you got it for a good price, congrats, check out what the P72 goes for on ebay, might be worth your while to sell it and grab a P28, plenty of off the shelf chips available for that one.
-PHiZ
The OBD2 system is not the cause of the problem--if it was then it would have showed up right away when the turbo was installed instead of months down the line. The oxygen sensor is bad and needs to be dealt with but for some reason every time someone mentions that their oxygen bad you assume that it's time to backdate to OBD1. Shop manuals have troubleshooting procedures for this sort of thing you know.
OBD1 and OBD2 ECUs deal with oxygen sensor data in essentially identical manners. Getting rid of one of the sensors and switching the ECU is an unnecessary expense and doesn't solve the root issue of the problem which is not the ECU but the oxygen sensor.
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2001
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Some info regarding oxygen sensors, from AEM's PEMS bulletin board, posted by an AEM technician.
http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=3690
Originally posted by JR
UEGO is Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen
Typical production car O2 sensors rely on “nernst cell” technology, commonly called “Narrow Band”, “2 wire”, “4 wire” and sometimes erroneously described as “Wide Band”. This is a very cost effective method that outputs a voltage based on the oxygen content of the gas being sampled. It is accurate in the region surrounding stoichiometric operation and leaner. Unfortunately, in the rich region where high performance engines usually operate, their accuracy and repeatability is virtually non-existent.
Wide Band generally refers to a temperature compensated narrow band sensor. The rich region output of a common O2 sensor is very temperature dependant which renders it useless if an accuracy greater than 1.5:1 AFR is desired. This is immediately obvious given the fact that a single output voltage actually represents wildly different AFR’s depending on the sensor temperature. These sensors were only designed for operating closed loop around the stoichiometric AFR (14.64 for gasoline). Accurately measuring and controlling the tip temperature of these types of sensors extends thier usability range somewhat.
UEGO sensors work on a different principle than the normal oxygen sensor you would find in your car. They use a “current pump” within the sensor itself to determine the actual oxygen concentration within the sensing element or, lacking any O2, it determines the amount of oxygen required to regain stoichiometric operation. The output is in the form of a very small current which varies depending on the air-fuel ratio. This is completely different from a normal oxygen sensor (1, 2 and 4 wire types) which directly output a voltage. The UEGO design allows measurement of the exact air fuel ratio over the entire operating range.
Each UEGO sensor (both Bosch and NTK) is individually calibrated and a resistor integral to the connector body set with the calibration value.
JR
UEGO is Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen
Typical production car O2 sensors rely on “nernst cell” technology, commonly called “Narrow Band”, “2 wire”, “4 wire” and sometimes erroneously described as “Wide Band”. This is a very cost effective method that outputs a voltage based on the oxygen content of the gas being sampled. It is accurate in the region surrounding stoichiometric operation and leaner. Unfortunately, in the rich region where high performance engines usually operate, their accuracy and repeatability is virtually non-existent.
Wide Band generally refers to a temperature compensated narrow band sensor. The rich region output of a common O2 sensor is very temperature dependant which renders it useless if an accuracy greater than 1.5:1 AFR is desired. This is immediately obvious given the fact that a single output voltage actually represents wildly different AFR’s depending on the sensor temperature. These sensors were only designed for operating closed loop around the stoichiometric AFR (14.64 for gasoline). Accurately measuring and controlling the tip temperature of these types of sensors extends thier usability range somewhat.
UEGO sensors work on a different principle than the normal oxygen sensor you would find in your car. They use a “current pump” within the sensor itself to determine the actual oxygen concentration within the sensing element or, lacking any O2, it determines the amount of oxygen required to regain stoichiometric operation. The output is in the form of a very small current which varies depending on the air-fuel ratio. This is completely different from a normal oxygen sensor (1, 2 and 4 wire types) which directly output a voltage. The UEGO design allows measurement of the exact air fuel ratio over the entire operating range.
Each UEGO sensor (both Bosch and NTK) is individually calibrated and a resistor integral to the connector body set with the calibration value.
JR
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 67
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From: so cal
so, i should forget about the obd2 obd1 conv. and just fix the o2 sensor?? i noticed that i had a check engine light before i put my exhaust for o2 heated sensor malf. but when i put my exhaust in i got also got a code for running to rich, after i got that code my car started running like shit.
GWAKS- Tech Geekifier
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,109
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From: Hampton, VA
From the very beginning it's been said that you should fix the problem instead of trying to jump all around it, which wouldn't even guarantee you a solution.
I tire of talking to walls though, so I'll just sit back.
I tire of talking to walls though, so I'll just sit back.
__________________
-Harry
AIM: NDcissive
CRX and Pre '92 Civic, Engine Tech and Tuning, & Track and Autocross Forum Mod
-Harry
AIM: NDcissive
CRX and Pre '92 Civic, Engine Tech and Tuning, & Track and Autocross Forum Mod
GWAKS- Tech Geekifier
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,109
Likes: 0
From: Hampton, VA
BTW, since I really don't like bad info being flung about, a very short google search for "How does an O2 sensor work?" came up with this:
Which can be found here, and was the first link on the list of search results. Now how hard was that? 
h:
How does an O2 sensor work?
An Oxygen sensor is a chemical generator. It is constantly making
a comparison between the Oxygen inside the exhaust manifold and air
outside the engine. If this comparison shows little or no
Oxygen in the exhaust manifold, a voltage is generated. The
output of the sensor is usually between 0 and 1.1 volts. All
spark combustion engines need the proper air fuel ratio to
operate correctly. For gasoline this is 14.7 parts of air to one
part of fuel. When the engine has more fuel than needed, all
available Oxygen is consumed in the cylinder and gasses leaving
through the exhaust contain almost no Oxygen. This sends out a
voltage greater than 0.45 volts. If the engine is running lean,
all fuel is burned, and the extra Oxygen leaves the cylinder and
flows into the exhaust. In this case, the sensor voltage goes
lower than 0.45 volts. Usually the output range seen seen is
0.2 to 0.7 volts.
The sensor does not begin to generate it's full output until it
reaches about 600 degrees F. Prior to this time the sensor is
not conductive. It is as if the circuit between the sensor and
computer is not complete. The mid point is about 0.45 volts.
This is neither rich nor lean. A fully warm O2 sensor *will not
spend any time at 0.45 volts*. In many cars, the computer sends
out a bias voltage of 0.45 through the O2 sensor wire. If the
sensor is not warm, or if the circuit is not complete, the computer
picks up a steady 0.45 volts. Since the computer knows this is
an "illegal" value, it judges the sensor to not be ready. It
remains in open loop operation, and uses all sensors except the
O2 to determine fuel delivery. Any time an engine is operated
in open loop, it runs somewhat rich and makes more exhaust
emissions. This translates into lost power, poor fuel economy
and air pollution.
The O2 sensor is constantly in a state of transition between high
and low voltage. Manfucturers call this crossing of the 0.45
volt mark O2 cross counts. The higher the number of O2 cross
counts, the better the sensor and other parts of the computer
control system are working. It is important to remember that the
O2 sensor is comparing the amount of Oxygen inside and outside
the engine. If the outside of the sensor should become blocked,
or coated with oil, sound insulation, undercoating or antifreeze,
(among other things), this comparison is not possible.
An Oxygen sensor is a chemical generator. It is constantly making
a comparison between the Oxygen inside the exhaust manifold and air
outside the engine. If this comparison shows little or no
Oxygen in the exhaust manifold, a voltage is generated. The
output of the sensor is usually between 0 and 1.1 volts. All
spark combustion engines need the proper air fuel ratio to
operate correctly. For gasoline this is 14.7 parts of air to one
part of fuel. When the engine has more fuel than needed, all
available Oxygen is consumed in the cylinder and gasses leaving
through the exhaust contain almost no Oxygen. This sends out a
voltage greater than 0.45 volts. If the engine is running lean,
all fuel is burned, and the extra Oxygen leaves the cylinder and
flows into the exhaust. In this case, the sensor voltage goes
lower than 0.45 volts. Usually the output range seen seen is
0.2 to 0.7 volts.
The sensor does not begin to generate it's full output until it
reaches about 600 degrees F. Prior to this time the sensor is
not conductive. It is as if the circuit between the sensor and
computer is not complete. The mid point is about 0.45 volts.
This is neither rich nor lean. A fully warm O2 sensor *will not
spend any time at 0.45 volts*. In many cars, the computer sends
out a bias voltage of 0.45 through the O2 sensor wire. If the
sensor is not warm, or if the circuit is not complete, the computer
picks up a steady 0.45 volts. Since the computer knows this is
an "illegal" value, it judges the sensor to not be ready. It
remains in open loop operation, and uses all sensors except the
O2 to determine fuel delivery. Any time an engine is operated
in open loop, it runs somewhat rich and makes more exhaust
emissions. This translates into lost power, poor fuel economy
and air pollution.
The O2 sensor is constantly in a state of transition between high
and low voltage. Manfucturers call this crossing of the 0.45
volt mark O2 cross counts. The higher the number of O2 cross
counts, the better the sensor and other parts of the computer
control system are working. It is important to remember that the
O2 sensor is comparing the amount of Oxygen inside and outside
the engine. If the outside of the sensor should become blocked,
or coated with oil, sound insulation, undercoating or antifreeze,
(among other things), this comparison is not possible.
h:
__________________
-Harry
AIM: NDcissive
CRX and Pre '92 Civic, Engine Tech and Tuning, & Track and Autocross Forum Mod
-Harry
AIM: NDcissive
CRX and Pre '92 Civic, Engine Tech and Tuning, & Track and Autocross Forum Mod
BOOST GOD
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,372
Likes: 0
From: NL CT
Originally posted by blacklude97
yeah, thats a good idea. i put in the obd2 obd1 conv. and it didnt help me out at all!!!
yeah, thats a good idea. i put in the obd2 obd1 conv. and it didnt help me out at all!!!
Hrm. OBD1 doesn't use the after the cat sensor location, are you still getting the code for "secondary heated 02 sensor failure."
Here is a thread with info on "tricking" the 2nd 02 sensor, I don't know what this entails. It might just trick the ECU into operation in open-loop at all times. Which may not be optimal.
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=393081.
Check the code again, make sure that it still says secondary o2. OBD1 doesn't have a provision for secondary 02, so I'm confused...
I think going forward, we should reccomend people use hihg-flow cats, over test-pipes. Seems like it saves trouble.
Let's fix this dude up guys, help him, out, let's hear some ideas.
-PHiZ