Hey guys, I'm new to the hybrid forum, and this is kinda a broad question (or should I say questions). I tried a search but didn't really get what I was looking for... so please bear with me

Anyway... I have a '92 vx, and I'm trying to figure out what swap is best for me. I wan't decent torque without extensive modification, so I'm shying away from the B16, my car is an autocross car, so the H-series is out of the question. So basically, I'm considering a B18 ls motor, a B18c gs-r motor, a B20, or a B20/vtec. I'm looking to spend something around $3k, but would be happy to pay less if the bang/buck value was good.

So in terms of a B18, is it worth the money to pay for the gs-r motor over the ls motor? I know the numbers, but what kind of driving impressions do you guys have? What are either engines advantages/disadvantages?

And about the B20... first of all, does it weigh more than the B18? If so, how much? Second, how much work is involved in getting the B20 into a civic? I can perform a direct swap myself, but I've taken off or mated a tranny to an engine. Plus, I'll be doing the work at a freinds house, since I don't have a garage, and I don't want the whole process to take more than a few days.

And a B20 vtec... I would probably have to get a shop to do this one for me. Is it worth it? What are some driving impressions on this setup? Are there any reliability issues that arise with mating the vtec head? How much might it cost to have the shop do this?

I'm just trying to get an idea of what I want.... any personal impressions would be greatly appreciated. Again, sorry for the onslaught of noOB questions. Thanks!!

 

 

I would think that if the motor is for autoX you'd want something that you could get through the gears quickly - revs fast.

With that said, and the fact that you want a lot of torque, I'd say that a B20/vtec with a GSR/ITR tranny would be the way to go. I'm not extremely versatile on all these motors, but that is my impression.

Check out www.bseries.net to answer some of your questions.

Oh, and as for your question about swapping: you'll need a cherry picker (engine hoist) to do the swap and know how to wire up everything that your VX harness doesn't have. I did my own swap and it really wasn't that hard.

 

I'm not worried about the swap itself. I have the tools and knowledge necessary for that. What I was more worried about was mating an integra transmission to the B20 engine... i've never done that kind of work before.

As for autocross, I'd be more interested in a thick, usable powerband than getting through the gears quickly. Because of the track layouts in most of the RMD events, I usually just leave the car in second the whole way, only shifting up for the high-speed sections (which are few and far between because of space constraints)

would a B20-vtec be cost effective though? It needs to be pretty cheap and reliable.

 

I would probably go with a B18C1 swap. It won't have the same torque as any B20 setup (less displacement) but the GS-R engine has a lot of punch for a lightweight Honda. The extra power on the top end will really help you when you hit the straights too (as opposed to a LS or B20). It will also probably be the easiest install, no head swapping, no tranny swapping and if you shop around, you can get a complete swap ready to go in with everything you need. It will be expensive though, most complete B18C1 swaps go for $3300 or more. You can sometimes find them cheaper, but you get what you pay for and sometimes you end up missing little items like shift linkage, a nessicary mount or and ECU which can add up quickly and give you a lot more downtime if you don't know you needed it before you pulled the old engine.

Another option you might consider is just a straight B20 swap (no VTEC head). You can find the long blocks for around $1000, that gives you a pretty big budget to find a tranny, axle's, shift linkage, mounts and ECU you'll probably need. Swapping on a new transmition really isn't hard. If you can do an oil change or brake pads, you can swap trannies (it's only about 15 bolts off than on if the engine's out). You could do a B20 long block, B16A tranny and intake manifold, and an LS (or even DX civic) ECU for well less than $3000 and if you want the extra top end power, swap on a VTEC head later (along with upgrading the block itself). Of course, you could always do a B18C1 swap now and have the block re-sleeved to 2.0L and get to the same place (but with the GS-R's better oiling and coolant system stock). Seeya.

 

do the B20 long blocks I see from various online retailers (usually around $800) include the stock B20 head? I was under the impression that all you got was the block and internals. If that was the case, wouldn't it be just as easy to pick up a B16 head and go for the B20/vtec setup? How much do those go for, and how much would I be looking at in terms of extras (intake and exhaust manifolds, distributor, etc..)?

If I could peice it together for significantly less than the B18c, it'd be worth it, but it sounds like a lot of trouble.

I understand B20s dont cope with higher rpms very well either--long stroke and all... Not that I want a high-revving monster, but would this limit my ability to take advantage of the B16 head (i.e. ITR valvetrain, cams, intake and whatnot)?

thanks

 

Typically long block deals come with everything from the valve cover to the oil pan. It will sometimes include a wiring harness, manifolds or distributor (depends on the seller). Short block's are usually just from the oil pan to the head gasket (no head or above). $800 sounds like a pretty good deal for a long block but don't forget shipping costs.

A common misconception with LS/VTEC's is they're cheap. It seems like it because your buying everything seperately. If you add up all the costs of the different parts (and shipping if you find them seperately) and the costs of upgrading the things that are nessicary to make the engine reliable, it gets costly. It's not that B20 (or any non-VTEC) can't rev, it's that they're not designed to rev to the same high rpms that the VTEC engines are (8000 is a lot). A few differences is the VTEC engine's have is a block girdle (a GS-R one can be machined to fit and Z10 make a comptable one), higher volume oil pump, slower speed water pump (the VTEC units can be bolted on) and oil squiters among other things. The marginally extra stroke of the non-VTEC engines also is an issue but not a huge one.

You could piece together a B20/VTEC for close to the same money as a B18C1 but the reliablity will count heavily on the quality of the work and how much you spend and do yourself. The B18C1 will basically be stock with typical Honda reliablity. An advantage to the B20/VTEC is it wouldn't have be stock if your willing to spend some extra money. Higher compression pistons, new bearings and a full balance while everything is apart anyway and maybe some headwork and new cams will put out a lot more power than a stock B18C1 (hell, more than the Type R's B18C5 if you spend your money in the right places and tune it). The sky's the limit on what you want to spend though and a B18C1 with similar modifications would put out similar power. You can always sleeve a B18C1 to 2.0L too, and have thicker and stronger sleeves. Seeya.

 

hey, thanks for all that info. If I were to do the B20/vtec, I would want to do it right, and it sounds like I wouldn't have the money or resources to do it right...

So I guess that narrows it down to: B20, B18c1 or B18b. I know the gs-r motor is the most popular, and definitely the most desirable, but the LS motor is much cheaper. Is anyone here familiar with (read: have ) the B18b or plain B20?

I know these probably wouldn't be as potent as the gs-r motor, but what I'm really looking for is the best bang/dollar. I notice, for instance, that the B18b makes nearly the same torque as the B18c1, but at 1000 lower RPM. This is the kind of thing that catches my attention, since money is also a very important factor. But would it be worth it to lose so much higher up?

So... how are the LS and B20 swaps from behind the wheel? I guess what I'm looking for are real-life driving impressions from those of your who have them (especially autocrossers). Likewise, total cost for those of you that have done it would be greatly appreciated (particularly for the B20).

sorry for all the questions.... Thanks

 

wow. I read up on this project: http://hybrid2.honda-perf.org/tech/B20/ and it sounds like I could get the basic setup for a very reasonable price. I'd just need to find a b20z instead of b20b, but any company that takes in a lot of JDM engines could probably find that.

It sounds very feasable. B20 longblock, teg transmission axles and linkage, LS ecu and intake manifold. Hell, that'd probably cost me less than $2500 if I shop around. they managed to get 138hp and 132 lb-ft to the wheels with a 4-1 header and exhaust. That sounds like just exactly what I'm looking for.

Any ideas, warnings, suggestions?

 

The GS-R and LS engines are both 1.8L so they have very similar torque ratings. The LS engine (and B20, the B20 has 3 mm of extra bore with new sleeves over a standard LS) actually has a slightly longer stroke than the C1/C5 but it's very minor. I'm not really sure why Honda did that, but they did. It's the difference in cam profiles that brings the LS toruqe peak earlier. LS's are also sort of the bastard child of B-series Honda swaps. There were a lot of them made and if you look hard enough, you can find one cheap (<$2000 complete). A friend of mine sold his a few years ago for $2000 with AEM CAI, DC header and Clutchmasters Stage 3 clutch. He swapped in a B18C1 that had a scored cylinder wall and ran like crap (which has since been resleeved with a ton of turbo and block work and still doesn't run right). The B18B is definately the best bang for the buck B-series swap but you don't have the same high rpm pull as the VTEC powerplants and the LS tranny has longer gearing and a lower final drive so you will lose some performance there.

I don't have a LS or B20 but I can give you some impressions of a B18C1 swap. WOW, it's a huge difference. I have 2 Honda's, a '98 EX with a D16Y8 (1.6L SOHC VTEC) and my '92 CX with a B18C1 swap. Come to a big hill in the '98 and you have to downshift to 4th just to maintain speed, down to 3rd to pull up it. The '92 will pull happily up the hill in 5th. On the highway, my '92 pulls in 5th like the '98 pulls in 3rd. Some of the difference is the extreme light weight of my CX (it's gutted with just two front seats and no PS or A/C) but still, it's night and day difference over the SOHC VTEC (and a hell of an improvement over the 1.5L 8-vavle 70hp CX engine it replaced).

I've been considering a swap for my '98 and if I save up the money before I decide to sell it, I'll probably swap a B20 into it. I was thinking I could get a B20 for around $1000, find a complete GS-R tranny assembly (axle's, shift linkage ...) for around another $1000. Put a B16A intake manifold on it, aftermarket header and an LS computer and I should be able to get everything together for less than $3000 and get it running strong. Just a pipe dream for now though, at least till I get my hatch fixed. Seeya.