J&S Ultra Safeguard tuning...
09-26-2008, 09:49 PM
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J&S Ultra Safeguard tuning...
Hello everyone,
I posted this up at another forum, but thought you could help as well. A bit of a read....so thanks!
Oh, no need to tell me about stand-alones like Hondata, etc...I know they work very well, but I'm sentimental and sticking with my current setup.
__________________________________________________ ______________
I had my Ultra Safeguard Ver. 2 installed about 5 years back when I upgraded my JRSC to 8psi. I didn't have the restrictor installed in the inlet hose to my FMU when they dyno-tuned everything; so everything was tuned as best as possible with very rich pressure settings.
I've since reinstalled the restrictor valve, was able to properly dial down my fp settings, but have trouble understanding how to use all the settings on the Safeguard. I've already done archived searches everywhere so I know all about the individual features: 20 or 10 degree control range; Retard All or Individaul; Programmed RPM/Vacuum controlled retard; Boost Start point; Boost Retard rate (0 to 2 degrees); MAP Limiter with adjustment to TP signal. I know what these controls do individaully, up to a certain point, but don't fully understand enough to set everything up collectively to eliminate tip-in at the vacuum/boost transition point.
With the restrictor in, fuel pressures are not only 'in the ballpark', they're pretty much on point (within 1psi +/- corrections). I just need help understanding how to properly set the Safeguard.
Here are the stats (as much as I can think of right now):
JRSC 8psi pulley (10 psi at the gauge)
RC 310's
26psi (34psi static) @ idle
68psi (38psi static) WOT
Stock timing
Around 3:1 rise rate
Current J&S setup:
10 degree retard range (Switch 1 down)
Retard all cylinders (Switch 2 up)
Sensitivity knob turned mid-point (can't tell if it's picking up noise or it's tip-in)
RPM retard @ 6 degrees max. (Controlled by RPM or vacuum between 2500 - 5000 rpms)...This is the one I have the most trouble understanding!
MAP Limiter set at the stock MAP signal (just where the 'Adjust' LED lights up)...
function supposed to help WOT by limiting TPS signal(?), but am I suppose to
turn clockwise or CCW?
Boost Retard set at 1.25 degree per psi. w/ Boost Retard Start Point @ 5 psi.
Currently still getting detonation (or is it noise?) just after 0 vacuum as well as around 5000 rpms under load (boost)...
That's all I can think of...any insights? TIA!!
A-dub
I posted this up at another forum, but thought you could help as well. A bit of a read....so thanks!
Oh, no need to tell me about stand-alones like Hondata, etc...I know they work very well, but I'm sentimental and sticking with my current setup.
__________________________________________________ ______________
I had my Ultra Safeguard Ver. 2 installed about 5 years back when I upgraded my JRSC to 8psi. I didn't have the restrictor installed in the inlet hose to my FMU when they dyno-tuned everything; so everything was tuned as best as possible with very rich pressure settings.
I've since reinstalled the restrictor valve, was able to properly dial down my fp settings, but have trouble understanding how to use all the settings on the Safeguard. I've already done archived searches everywhere so I know all about the individual features: 20 or 10 degree control range; Retard All or Individaul; Programmed RPM/Vacuum controlled retard; Boost Start point; Boost Retard rate (0 to 2 degrees); MAP Limiter with adjustment to TP signal. I know what these controls do individaully, up to a certain point, but don't fully understand enough to set everything up collectively to eliminate tip-in at the vacuum/boost transition point.
With the restrictor in, fuel pressures are not only 'in the ballpark', they're pretty much on point (within 1psi +/- corrections). I just need help understanding how to properly set the Safeguard.
Here are the stats (as much as I can think of right now):
JRSC 8psi pulley (10 psi at the gauge)
RC 310's
26psi (34psi static) @ idle
68psi (38psi static) WOT
Stock timing
Around 3:1 rise rate
Current J&S setup:
10 degree retard range (Switch 1 down)
Retard all cylinders (Switch 2 up)
Sensitivity knob turned mid-point (can't tell if it's picking up noise or it's tip-in)
RPM retard @ 6 degrees max. (Controlled by RPM or vacuum between 2500 - 5000 rpms)...This is the one I have the most trouble understanding!
MAP Limiter set at the stock MAP signal (just where the 'Adjust' LED lights up)...
function supposed to help WOT by limiting TPS signal(?), but am I suppose to
turn clockwise or CCW?
Boost Retard set at 1.25 degree per psi. w/ Boost Retard Start Point @ 5 psi.
Currently still getting detonation (or is it noise?) just after 0 vacuum as well as around 5000 rpms under load (boost)...
That's all I can think of...any insights? TIA!!
A-dub
Last edited by A-dub5513; 09-26-2008 at 09:54 PM.
09-27-2008, 09:38 PM
#2
Retard you base ignition timing. You are not tuned? You just have FMU so there are no changes to the timing. You probably are knocking.
I would say ditch the FMU go crome,neptune,hondata bla bla.............. So you can tune fuel and ignition timing separately.
Read.
http://www.talkjdm.com/showthread.ph...927#post115927
I would say ditch the FMU go crome,neptune,hondata bla bla.............. So you can tune fuel and ignition timing separately.
Read.
http://www.talkjdm.com/showthread.ph...927#post115927
09-29-2008, 06:55 PM
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Was it tuned? Well, yes and no. It was "dyno-tuned" back in the day when the 8psi pulley, J&S, injectors, etc. was installed. Even though my dyno sheet showed 228hp and 166trq, I knew it felt waaay too rich. This was recently confirmed (5 yrs. after install) when I found my old restrictor valve and reinstalled it to my FMU vacuum hose. This totally allowed me to reduce fuel pressures. I then retuned my fuel setup to proper idle and max pressures. Engine runs way cleaner; smoother. No more backfires and burps. More importantly, the engine doesn't suddenly die out when I let off the gas. (I've been plagued by this FOREVER and no one was ever able to figure this out. Now I know it's due to ECU trying to advance/retard timing in too wide a range because of too much fuel.)
Anyway, true, my base timing is set at stock. But I wouldn't say that there are no changes. That's the job of the J&S...to control timing. But it does this over several seperate conditions and parameters.
As I stated above, I have it set to start retard @ 5psi (I've since bumped it back to start @ 0psi) with the rate setting to retard 1 degree per psi. Also, it also has a feature that let's you set the amount of retard (2, 4, 6, or 8 degrees max.) for mid-range acceleration. Instead of boost based, this feature pulls timing based on vacuum and/or rpm. (ie. accelerating from 70 mph on freeway).
Since my last post, I've done more research and tuning. I ended up with a test run at WOT that was night and day. Let's just say it's has been a looong time since I did a decent WOT run without my gauge lightin' up like a Christmas tree! Only got between 1 to 2 knock retard LED's to flicker. With my unit set for 10 degree retard range (1 LED representing 1degree knock retard), I was only pulling between 1 and 2 degrees from knock. So with my Boost Rate knob set @ 1 degree per psi of boost, and being that I see 10psi max., my base timing is bumped back to 6 degrees at full boost. (This even right? Sure seems like a lot of power lost!!)
Anyway, regarding my many questions up top, I now narrow it down to this: Can anyone simply explain how to work the J&S MAP Limiter knob? Right now I have the knob around the mid-point (just when the 'Adjust' LED is lit), indicating the stock set point before the ECU goes into 'open-loop' when sensing boost. According to the instructions this has some range of adjustability for WOT. How do I do this? With the knob set at threshhold (LED lit), is my adjustability range CCW from this point (staying within the lit range)? Or do I turn CW, point being to reset a new signal point?
A-dub
Anyway, true, my base timing is set at stock. But I wouldn't say that there are no changes. That's the job of the J&S...to control timing. But it does this over several seperate conditions and parameters.
As I stated above, I have it set to start retard @ 5psi (I've since bumped it back to start @ 0psi) with the rate setting to retard 1 degree per psi. Also, it also has a feature that let's you set the amount of retard (2, 4, 6, or 8 degrees max.) for mid-range acceleration. Instead of boost based, this feature pulls timing based on vacuum and/or rpm. (ie. accelerating from 70 mph on freeway).
Since my last post, I've done more research and tuning. I ended up with a test run at WOT that was night and day. Let's just say it's has been a looong time since I did a decent WOT run without my gauge lightin' up like a Christmas tree! Only got between 1 to 2 knock retard LED's to flicker. With my unit set for 10 degree retard range (1 LED representing 1degree knock retard), I was only pulling between 1 and 2 degrees from knock. So with my Boost Rate knob set @ 1 degree per psi of boost, and being that I see 10psi max., my base timing is bumped back to 6 degrees at full boost. (This even right? Sure seems like a lot of power lost!!)
Anyway, regarding my many questions up top, I now narrow it down to this: Can anyone simply explain how to work the J&S MAP Limiter knob? Right now I have the knob around the mid-point (just when the 'Adjust' LED is lit), indicating the stock set point before the ECU goes into 'open-loop' when sensing boost. According to the instructions this has some range of adjustability for WOT. How do I do this? With the knob set at threshhold (LED lit), is my adjustability range CCW from this point (staying within the lit range)? Or do I turn CW, point being to reset a new signal point?
A-dub
Last edited by A-dub5513; 09-29-2008 at 07:18 PM.
09-29-2008, 07:09 PM
#4
O ok. Usually I like to run 1.5 per pound of boost. I didn't know j&s had that feature. You could probably tune your fuel a bit better if you had a wide band + plus playing around with your fmu.
09-29-2008, 08:31 PM
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Right on though, Fuse. Yeah, I've heard some folks (assuming they're seeing 10psi, like me) have their retard rate anywhere between .8 to 1.25-ish per psi. I gotta ask, what max boost you runnin'? And what's your base timing down to at WOT?
As for my fuel setup, I'm pretty confident that my FMU is on point as far as rise rate goes. Same also goes for my fp's settings, both idle and max. Back in the day, it has been universally agreed that static pressures on FMU should be set at 36 to 38 psi. That takes care of max fp's @ WOT resulting in 68 to 72 psi max. Keep in mind that these stats are specifically to my setup (8psi pulley, RC 310's, Cartech FMU set to 36-38 static, AEM regulator mounted at fuel rail set to 32-34 static, HO fuel pump).
But I think you're right, to a certain extent. I might lower my baseline timing by one degree. The upside of doing this, to my understanding, is that I can lower my overall operating temps because retarding and advancing timing increases engine temps. It'll probably help my 1 or 2 degree knock retard at max boost. But the obvious downside is the slight loss of power across the power band.
A-dub
As for my fuel setup, I'm pretty confident that my FMU is on point as far as rise rate goes. Same also goes for my fp's settings, both idle and max. Back in the day, it has been universally agreed that static pressures on FMU should be set at 36 to 38 psi. That takes care of max fp's @ WOT resulting in 68 to 72 psi max. Keep in mind that these stats are specifically to my setup (8psi pulley, RC 310's, Cartech FMU set to 36-38 static, AEM regulator mounted at fuel rail set to 32-34 static, HO fuel pump).
But I think you're right, to a certain extent. I might lower my baseline timing by one degree. The upside of doing this, to my understanding, is that I can lower my overall operating temps because retarding and advancing timing increases engine temps. It'll probably help my 1 or 2 degree knock retard at max boost. But the obvious downside is the slight loss of power across the power band.
A-dub
09-30-2008, 08:02 PM
#6
I don't have a cool car I do tune friends cars. 12 psi d16. I use 1.5 for safety purposes. I only street tune at the moment dyno time gets expensive.
I just set my base ignition to 16 to match my ignition maps in crome. At wide open ignition timing was down under 10 higher rpm. Like 6 I think. You can turn you distributor and add subtract timing for you hole ignition map.
More ignition retard keeps ects down but razes egts vice versa for more ignition advance.
I do tune friends cars. 12 psi d16. I use 1.5 for safety purposes. I only street tune at the moment dyno time gets expensive.I just set my base ignition to 16 to match my ignition maps in crome. At wide open ignition timing was down under 10 higher rpm. Like 6 I think. You can turn you distributor and add subtract timing for you hole ignition map.
More ignition retard keeps ects down but razes egts vice versa for more ignition advance.
09-30-2008, 08:44 PM
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1.5 degrees retard x 12 psi = 18 retard. Doesn't that seem like alot of timing to be pulled for that amount of boost? Hmmm.
Guess it's better to be safe than sorry...especially if it's not your car!
Hey, do you understand 'open-loop' and 'closed-loop' conditions. I've been reading up on all kinds of archived posts on all kinds of cars about electronic O2 clamps, but still can't figure out if I'm supposed to raise or lower the output signal between the "clamp" (J&S Ultra v.2) back out to ECU.
From what I've read, I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to lower the ouput voltage, thus lowering the "stock set point" before the ECU goes into open-loop (where it pulls fuel and lean out...I think). But lowering the set point too much with the existing fuel pressure settings will create a "slimmer" closed-loop range, creating richer fuel conditions in that range (vacuum to 0psi).
Does that sound right?
Guess it's better to be safe than sorry...especially if it's not your car!
Hey, do you understand 'open-loop' and 'closed-loop' conditions. I've been reading up on all kinds of archived posts on all kinds of cars about electronic O2 clamps, but still can't figure out if I'm supposed to raise or lower the output signal between the "clamp" (J&S Ultra v.2) back out to ECU.
From what I've read, I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to lower the ouput voltage, thus lowering the "stock set point" before the ECU goes into open-loop (where it pulls fuel and lean out...I think). But lowering the set point too much with the existing fuel pressure settings will create a "slimmer" closed-loop range, creating richer fuel conditions in that range (vacuum to 0psi).
Does that sound right?
10-01-2008, 05:02 PM
#8
I may bump it up but he wanted no problemsI have never used a clamp I Did however rite a little thing about open and closed loop.
http://www.talkjdm.com/showthread.ph...927#post115927
Or go to.
http://mycomputerninja.com/~jon/www....e/WebHome.html and dig threw allot of info on this site.
If you chip you can disable open and closed loop all together or tune them to what you want.