enigne and turbo noobs, come to me
Thread Starter
turning u inside out
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,545
Likes: 0
From: cortland, ohio
enigne and turbo noobs, come to me
The more and more I come on HAN, the more I realize people want to do a motor swap or turbo. Good, and I hope u have done your homework. So many threads have been started about it, that its sickening. So, I am going to pack this thread with all sorts of information and links that will help these people out and lets see if the noobs can go for one week without posting a question about the topic at hand
Swap: civics come stock with a variety of engines, but ill stick with the 92-00.
Non-vtec motors- d15’s, d16’s. these motors suck in my opinon. The d16a6 is ok due to it having a very nice flowing head. D15’s come with very weak rods, and the typical cast crap that Honda uses. I would not recommend turboing these motors past 7-8 psi unless u have done some sort of internal mods.
D16z6/y8- these are good, reliable motors. Torqueless, and low horsepower, but they like turbos and can rev pretty well. The y8 head flows a little bit better then the z6’s, but the motors are damn near identical. They can hold around 20-210 whp region safely if tuned well. This calculates to about 10-13 psi on a super 60 trim t3. if u blow ur motor tho pushing the limits of your d, that’s ur fault.
B18a/b1. this is a very nice motor to boost. Lower comprssion then the other b’s and I have seen people put 14psi thru a stock motor. The yare relatively cheap and very easy to find do to an abundance of people looking for the b18c1 which is basically a b18 with a vtec head. Now, u can put a vtec head on a non-vtec motor, but, it has to be done right from the get do, or there will be problems. I would recommendtaking both the head and the block to a professional to do any needed maching to get both of them level.
B18c1/c5. both have vtec heads, both have nice horsepower and decent torque. Both of which sadly have fairly high compression nto boot. I would say 10psi would be safe on a c1, but its up too you to do the research on a c5. the b18c5 is a rich mans motor and a N/A freaks best friend. They have high compression and rev like a beast. But like I said, there not cheap and sometimes hard to come by in good shape
B20. my opinon, the autistic motor of the bunch. Thin ass walls, toothpick rods and typical pistons. Although, if done correctly can be a nice motor and its fairly cheap and abundant. I wouldn’t put too much boost thru one of these motors, it just isn’t wise. Bitch and whine if you want, cause im sure some of you will, but this motor should not be pushed like a b18a/b or even a c1.
The h22 is basically the big block Honda motor. I do not know a whole lot about these engines, other then them beign a real bitch to install. The worst thing about them is that there sleeves are made of a different material then other Honda engines. So, the only way to run forged pistons is too have the motor sleeved.
The b16 is basically a dohc d16. torqueless and the only way to fell the monety u just paid for it is to rev the shit out of it. Turboing these engines is a common thing and I would say 10-12 psi is plenty safe with proper tuning
Turbo setups range from pre-built kits too junkyard setups. It all depends on how much money you have and what your goals are. I built my turbo setup for my d with all new parts and it came to around 1700.
Turbos- range in many sizes. Just remember that bigger is not always better. You may be running a turbo for drag supras, but your stock 1.8 might not even spool that thing. Another thing, psi and horsepower are totally separate. Lets look at it this way. A .42/.48 t3 turbo puts 10psi thru a d16z6 with stock internals, head etc, and on average will make around 190 to the wheels. A super 60 t3, .63/.60, at tenm psi can put out around 200-210 on that same motor at 10psi do to the amount of air it can flow. This is a huge factor for guys with built motors running 20psi or more. There could be a difference from 10-50hp based on jsu the size of the turbo.
Rule of thumb, bigger it is, longer it takes too spool.
Fuel- injectors shoulkd be upgraded on a turbo car and I woul highly recommend running some sort of engine managemwent, and an FMU is not fuel managemtn *cough* tony *cough*. There have benn lots of companys developing software for factory ecus. Such as crome, uberdata, edyne, megasquirt and a few others. These are reliable programs that should be tuned by someone with experience or atleast someone with basic knowledge of fuel management. There are also things like hondata and aem ems. These are bling bling systems in my opnion. Very over priced and I am not very familiar with them
The rest of the things that are involved ina turbo setup are pretty self explainatory. Intercoolers, blow off valves, piping and oil lines. Intercoolers should be matched to your desired hp output. Blow off valves are basically the buyers preference to what they want ot hear after letting off the throttle. I like loud and obnoxious, so I bought the turboxs horn. Piping should be kept between 2.5-3.00 inches. Oil lines, I recommend braided lines for return and feed, less chance of pinching or kinks in the line.
Swap: civics come stock with a variety of engines, but ill stick with the 92-00.
Non-vtec motors- d15’s, d16’s. these motors suck in my opinon. The d16a6 is ok due to it having a very nice flowing head. D15’s come with very weak rods, and the typical cast crap that Honda uses. I would not recommend turboing these motors past 7-8 psi unless u have done some sort of internal mods.
D16z6/y8- these are good, reliable motors. Torqueless, and low horsepower, but they like turbos and can rev pretty well. The y8 head flows a little bit better then the z6’s, but the motors are damn near identical. They can hold around 20-210 whp region safely if tuned well. This calculates to about 10-13 psi on a super 60 trim t3. if u blow ur motor tho pushing the limits of your d, that’s ur fault.
B18a/b1. this is a very nice motor to boost. Lower comprssion then the other b’s and I have seen people put 14psi thru a stock motor. The yare relatively cheap and very easy to find do to an abundance of people looking for the b18c1 which is basically a b18 with a vtec head. Now, u can put a vtec head on a non-vtec motor, but, it has to be done right from the get do, or there will be problems. I would recommendtaking both the head and the block to a professional to do any needed maching to get both of them level.
B18c1/c5. both have vtec heads, both have nice horsepower and decent torque. Both of which sadly have fairly high compression nto boot. I would say 10psi would be safe on a c1, but its up too you to do the research on a c5. the b18c5 is a rich mans motor and a N/A freaks best friend. They have high compression and rev like a beast. But like I said, there not cheap and sometimes hard to come by in good shape
B20. my opinon, the autistic motor of the bunch. Thin ass walls, toothpick rods and typical pistons. Although, if done correctly can be a nice motor and its fairly cheap and abundant. I wouldn’t put too much boost thru one of these motors, it just isn’t wise. Bitch and whine if you want, cause im sure some of you will, but this motor should not be pushed like a b18a/b or even a c1.
The h22 is basically the big block Honda motor. I do not know a whole lot about these engines, other then them beign a real bitch to install. The worst thing about them is that there sleeves are made of a different material then other Honda engines. So, the only way to run forged pistons is too have the motor sleeved.
The b16 is basically a dohc d16. torqueless and the only way to fell the monety u just paid for it is to rev the shit out of it. Turboing these engines is a common thing and I would say 10-12 psi is plenty safe with proper tuning
Turbo setups range from pre-built kits too junkyard setups. It all depends on how much money you have and what your goals are. I built my turbo setup for my d with all new parts and it came to around 1700.
Turbos- range in many sizes. Just remember that bigger is not always better. You may be running a turbo for drag supras, but your stock 1.8 might not even spool that thing. Another thing, psi and horsepower are totally separate. Lets look at it this way. A .42/.48 t3 turbo puts 10psi thru a d16z6 with stock internals, head etc, and on average will make around 190 to the wheels. A super 60 t3, .63/.60, at tenm psi can put out around 200-210 on that same motor at 10psi do to the amount of air it can flow. This is a huge factor for guys with built motors running 20psi or more. There could be a difference from 10-50hp based on jsu the size of the turbo.
Rule of thumb, bigger it is, longer it takes too spool.
Fuel- injectors shoulkd be upgraded on a turbo car and I woul highly recommend running some sort of engine managemwent, and an FMU is not fuel managemtn *cough* tony *cough*. There have benn lots of companys developing software for factory ecus. Such as crome, uberdata, edyne, megasquirt and a few others. These are reliable programs that should be tuned by someone with experience or atleast someone with basic knowledge of fuel management. There are also things like hondata and aem ems. These are bling bling systems in my opnion. Very over priced and I am not very familiar with them
The rest of the things that are involved ina turbo setup are pretty self explainatory. Intercoolers, blow off valves, piping and oil lines. Intercoolers should be matched to your desired hp output. Blow off valves are basically the buyers preference to what they want ot hear after letting off the throttle. I like loud and obnoxious, so I bought the turboxs horn. Piping should be kept between 2.5-3.00 inches. Oil lines, I recommend braided lines for return and feed, less chance of pinching or kinks in the line.
Thread Starter
turning u inside out
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,545
Likes: 0
From: cortland, ohio
tomorrow when i have the time i will include links to various sites where u can get parts, info, etc and also info on lesser looked on things like spark plugs, gas, and oil for turbo setups
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: Mclean, VA
If I'd have a white Honda Civic Coupe 1998 with CD Player, Nice black leather, nice rims, tinted windows,a spoiler wing, and an Acura 3.2 TL Motor, I would love it.
Don't forget having Dual Transmission :P Automatic for comfy, and Manual for high speed and to enjoy hearing the nice motor noise. Plus, 6 Speed Transmission, wheww... Can you change a Civics Motor to a 3.2 TL Motor???
Don't forget having Dual Transmission :P Automatic for comfy, and Manual for high speed and to enjoy hearing the nice motor noise. Plus, 6 Speed Transmission, wheww... Can you change a Civics Motor to a 3.2 TL Motor???
warm butter on toast
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,485
Likes: 0
From: The boonies, CT
Originally Posted by Shizz
If I'd have a white Honda Civic Coupe 1998 with CD Player, Nice black leather, nice rims, tinted windows,a spoiler wing, and an Acura 3.2 TL Motor, I would love it.
Don't forget having Dual Transmission :P Automatic for comfy, and Manual for high speed and to enjoy hearing the nice motor noise. Plus, 6 Speed Transmission, wheww... Can you change a Civics Motor to a 3.2 TL Motor???
Don't forget having Dual Transmission :P Automatic for comfy, and Manual for high speed and to enjoy hearing the nice motor noise. Plus, 6 Speed Transmission, wheww... Can you change a Civics Motor to a 3.2 TL Motor???
Your Powder Coater
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,463
Likes: 0
From: Girard, Ohio
Eric you have come a long way & did a good job summing this all together..
definatly run through your thoughts again later & re-format this a little bit, very informative. Maybe add a couple sub titles or somethin. GREAT content tho!
he's had some troubles with one of them that they needed to be sent back but the company stood behind their product & even included over-night return shipping! Very nice people to deal with very easty to get a responce out of & the products are very well priced. I would recommend the RC's if you have the cash but Tuner Toys is definatly capturing the DIY market!
definatly run through your thoughts again later & re-format this a little bit, very informative. Maybe add a couple sub titles or somethin. GREAT content tho!
Originally Posted by Däs Schmoo
How are those Tuner Toys injectors working out for you?
I just ordered a set of 450's so I can bump the boost to 10 psi, so don't tell me they are junk.
I just ordered a set of 450's so I can bump the boost to 10 psi, so don't tell me they are junk.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,949
Likes: 0
From: chicago,il
can you also please review turbo kits that are available in a package like greddy, drag, or revhard (pros and cons)? maybe a little section on superchargers (jackson racing or vortech)?
Thanks and good job on the 1st post!
Thanks and good job on the 1st post!
Thread Starter
turning u inside out
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,545
Likes: 0
From: cortland, ohio
i know the article was a lil rough, but i was writing it while writing a chem paper
moving om.
with a turbo setup, nitrous \or even a high power na setup, it is recommended to upgrade your plugs. you have a few options here depending on what you want to spend and how much power you want to put out. i run NGK BKR7E's and gap them to about .28. this is a very safe running combination used by both SOHC turbo guys and DOHC turbo guys ranging from 180-350 hp region. there are people who still use these same plugs past that point which is ok as long as you know they can handle the stress. Certain companies also make plugs such as Zex and Denso. BOth are nice plugs, but, are not readily available at auto parts stores and come at a hefty price. Iridium plugs are certainly over kill for most peoples applications. i can understand using an iridium plu for say a srag car, or a tleast a car that sees a lot of drag racing and or high boost levels, but they are certainly not necessary.
motor oil-
there are three basic types of motor oil- straight motor oil, synthetic blend and full synthetic. regular motor oil isnt as common as say a synthetic blend, atleast not since the last time i purchased motor oil and is relatively inexpensive. synthetic blend is a typical motor oil used everyday by all sorts of manufacturers. full synthetic is motor oil that is more durable, i guess you would say, then the otehr too. it can survive many heat cycles and perfom longer then the other two, allowing for oil changes to be made at intervals up too 10k before an oil change is required. for a turbo vehicle, oil is more important then you would think. when oil gets hot, it can loose its viscosity and being that oil is being pumped throug hyour turbo, it is being heat soaked and can loose its ability to properly lubricate. wit hthat being said, it is a smarter i dea to run a thicker, full synthetic blend oil for a turbo engine, rather then runnign one of the other two. now, im nto sayign that u have to use synthetic, but u will have to change your oil more frequently unless u hate your motor and want it to die.
prob numero uno when it coems to oil and turbos: coking can occur. coking is when the oil inside the turbo is extremely hot and when it cools it can turn to sludge. now, this happens quicker with conventional motor oil in comparison to synthetic, but it still happens. there are two ways to avoid this and an alterior way to help it not happen. one is bu ya turbo timer. the engine will run for on average 1 to 2 minuted allowing the oil to run through the turbo and the engine letting it cool and flush out any gunk they may have built up. another is to sit in your car with it running for 1-2 minutes, while it runs, wishing you had a turbo timer (like me). now, there are liquid and oil cooled turbos. if it is liquid cooled, it will aid in keeping your oil temperature a little more stable while lubricating the turbo, but it will not eliminate you havign to wait for the car to run for a period of time.
exhaust: mandrel bent vs. crush bent
mandrel bent is simply pipe bent in a way that does not distort the metal in any way, shape or form. you keep a constant diameter through out the bend. almost all after market exhausts are mandrel bent. crush bent is usually what comes on your car factory or what a typical hillbilly exhaust shop uses. this procedure involves putting the pipe on a bender and a dye is press d into it to give it a correct baend. it is an easy way to bend pipe and is fine for stock cars, but it does impeded air flow. air flows on the outside of a bend, so you wantthe diameter to stay the same through out the bend. when its crushed, the air flow no longer runs in a smooth motion trough out the bend, and it becomes turbulent.
i persoanlly have a crush bent exhaust, sad to say, but there are ways to make up for this such as upping the diameter of the pip. i have a 3 inch dp, custom made with out being crushed, and a 2.75 exhaust which is crush bent. by upping the size of the pipe will make up for the crush in the bend.
noise: turbos drastically cut down the amount of noise your exhaust produces, unless your running an open downpipe. people whom live in california or any place where e-checks are required may also need to be under a certain dB level which i think is 90, but i could be wrong. if your looking for a quiet exhaust that is aftermarket, then i would recommend an apexi world sport exhaust or an rsr emag. both very nice, quiet exhaust systems. if your having one custom made, you can have a resonator put in and also a muffler. if u want a quiet muffler, i went with a chrome magnaflow. its very quiet and i can easily hear the turbo spool over the exhaust note. if u want obnoxious, go for an ebay spoecial. there like 30 bux shipped and will work the same as an apexi n1 muffler.
as i said, here are some links to sites that sell turbo parts or has general info and als oa few links to other forums that can help you get on your way.
http://www.beesandgoats.com/ go to far top left and clic kon turbo guide
http://www.cse.uconn.edu/~yelevich/turbo/turbo.html lots of good info here and easy to follow
http://www.importreview.com/main.html amazing people whom have built some insanely fast cars and have done TONS of testing with pistons to find out what are best WISECO
http://www.dh-racing.com/ this is for the guy with lots of money and too lazy to not build his or her own engine, but, they are very nice engines
http://www.tunertoys.com/ http://www.stealthmodeperformance.com/ http://www.kteller.com/store/ http://www.honda-performance.com/ http://www.lsdmotorsports.com/ http://www.johnnyracecar.com/ http://www.speedpartsrus.com/ all of these sites are excellent resources for DIYer's. i bought many of my turbo parts through these guys. one thing i will point out is KMS makes upgraded oil pumps for even d series engines. read up on there stuff, its nice.
http://store.yahoo.com/cheapturbo/hobtukit.html http://www.full-race.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=34
http://www.atpturbo.com/
these three are basically the bling bling of turbop parts. full race makes incredible kits and they are incredibly expensive.
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/
http://www.honda-tech.com/
http://www.sohchonda.com/home.shtml
a few forums with lots of info
now, there are hundreds if not thousands of sites dedicated to solely honda/aucra performance so these sites i listed above is just a chip off the block of the masses of information available and the massive amount of distributers selling parts from gaskets to complete engine builds. i would highly recommend reading some sort of honda performance books and engine building guides. i personally have read more books about it then i would like ot think of right now, and im still learning.
another thing, if people would like me too, i will write out all the forumlas by hand and scan them so they can learn how to read compressor maps and how much hp is available from upping compressions and i als ohave a couple of others for fuel injectors sizesa and there efficency and also how to rater a clutch. if there are any questions, post them in this thread so everyone can see them and learn. remember, knowledge is power and its for the whole world to have
moving om.
with a turbo setup, nitrous \or even a high power na setup, it is recommended to upgrade your plugs. you have a few options here depending on what you want to spend and how much power you want to put out. i run NGK BKR7E's and gap them to about .28. this is a very safe running combination used by both SOHC turbo guys and DOHC turbo guys ranging from 180-350 hp region. there are people who still use these same plugs past that point which is ok as long as you know they can handle the stress. Certain companies also make plugs such as Zex and Denso. BOth are nice plugs, but, are not readily available at auto parts stores and come at a hefty price. Iridium plugs are certainly over kill for most peoples applications. i can understand using an iridium plu for say a srag car, or a tleast a car that sees a lot of drag racing and or high boost levels, but they are certainly not necessary.
motor oil-
there are three basic types of motor oil- straight motor oil, synthetic blend and full synthetic. regular motor oil isnt as common as say a synthetic blend, atleast not since the last time i purchased motor oil and is relatively inexpensive. synthetic blend is a typical motor oil used everyday by all sorts of manufacturers. full synthetic is motor oil that is more durable, i guess you would say, then the otehr too. it can survive many heat cycles and perfom longer then the other two, allowing for oil changes to be made at intervals up too 10k before an oil change is required. for a turbo vehicle, oil is more important then you would think. when oil gets hot, it can loose its viscosity and being that oil is being pumped throug hyour turbo, it is being heat soaked and can loose its ability to properly lubricate. wit hthat being said, it is a smarter i dea to run a thicker, full synthetic blend oil for a turbo engine, rather then runnign one of the other two. now, im nto sayign that u have to use synthetic, but u will have to change your oil more frequently unless u hate your motor and want it to die.
prob numero uno when it coems to oil and turbos: coking can occur. coking is when the oil inside the turbo is extremely hot and when it cools it can turn to sludge. now, this happens quicker with conventional motor oil in comparison to synthetic, but it still happens. there are two ways to avoid this and an alterior way to help it not happen. one is bu ya turbo timer. the engine will run for on average 1 to 2 minuted allowing the oil to run through the turbo and the engine letting it cool and flush out any gunk they may have built up. another is to sit in your car with it running for 1-2 minutes, while it runs, wishing you had a turbo timer (like me). now, there are liquid and oil cooled turbos. if it is liquid cooled, it will aid in keeping your oil temperature a little more stable while lubricating the turbo, but it will not eliminate you havign to wait for the car to run for a period of time.
exhaust: mandrel bent vs. crush bent
mandrel bent is simply pipe bent in a way that does not distort the metal in any way, shape or form. you keep a constant diameter through out the bend. almost all after market exhausts are mandrel bent. crush bent is usually what comes on your car factory or what a typical hillbilly exhaust shop uses. this procedure involves putting the pipe on a bender and a dye is press d into it to give it a correct baend. it is an easy way to bend pipe and is fine for stock cars, but it does impeded air flow. air flows on the outside of a bend, so you wantthe diameter to stay the same through out the bend. when its crushed, the air flow no longer runs in a smooth motion trough out the bend, and it becomes turbulent.
i persoanlly have a crush bent exhaust, sad to say, but there are ways to make up for this such as upping the diameter of the pip. i have a 3 inch dp, custom made with out being crushed, and a 2.75 exhaust which is crush bent. by upping the size of the pipe will make up for the crush in the bend.
noise: turbos drastically cut down the amount of noise your exhaust produces, unless your running an open downpipe. people whom live in california or any place where e-checks are required may also need to be under a certain dB level which i think is 90, but i could be wrong. if your looking for a quiet exhaust that is aftermarket, then i would recommend an apexi world sport exhaust or an rsr emag. both very nice, quiet exhaust systems. if your having one custom made, you can have a resonator put in and also a muffler. if u want a quiet muffler, i went with a chrome magnaflow. its very quiet and i can easily hear the turbo spool over the exhaust note. if u want obnoxious, go for an ebay spoecial. there like 30 bux shipped and will work the same as an apexi n1 muffler.
as i said, here are some links to sites that sell turbo parts or has general info and als oa few links to other forums that can help you get on your way.
http://www.beesandgoats.com/ go to far top left and clic kon turbo guide
http://www.cse.uconn.edu/~yelevich/turbo/turbo.html lots of good info here and easy to follow
http://www.importreview.com/main.html amazing people whom have built some insanely fast cars and have done TONS of testing with pistons to find out what are best WISECO
http://www.dh-racing.com/ this is for the guy with lots of money and too lazy to not build his or her own engine, but, they are very nice engines
http://www.tunertoys.com/ http://www.stealthmodeperformance.com/ http://www.kteller.com/store/ http://www.honda-performance.com/ http://www.lsdmotorsports.com/ http://www.johnnyracecar.com/ http://www.speedpartsrus.com/ all of these sites are excellent resources for DIYer's. i bought many of my turbo parts through these guys. one thing i will point out is KMS makes upgraded oil pumps for even d series engines. read up on there stuff, its nice.
http://store.yahoo.com/cheapturbo/hobtukit.html http://www.full-race.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=34
http://www.atpturbo.com/
these three are basically the bling bling of turbop parts. full race makes incredible kits and they are incredibly expensive.
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/
http://www.honda-tech.com/
http://www.sohchonda.com/home.shtml
a few forums with lots of info
now, there are hundreds if not thousands of sites dedicated to solely honda/aucra performance so these sites i listed above is just a chip off the block of the masses of information available and the massive amount of distributers selling parts from gaskets to complete engine builds. i would highly recommend reading some sort of honda performance books and engine building guides. i personally have read more books about it then i would like ot think of right now, and im still learning.
another thing, if people would like me too, i will write out all the forumlas by hand and scan them so they can learn how to read compressor maps and how much hp is available from upping compressions and i als ohave a couple of others for fuel injectors sizesa and there efficency and also how to rater a clutch. if there are any questions, post them in this thread so everyone can see them and learn. remember, knowledge is power and its for the whole world to have
new2nerfan
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
i just wanted to thank raiden for the lesson in turbo and engines. im new to all of this and i have learned quite a bit from just one thread. i would like to try and build a turbo setup for my stock hb in an effort to learn more and more about my car and what it can do. i only have one question...as i am currently saving up for my b series engine swap, i was wondering if the diy turbo setup described in one of the links provided would work on my 99 civic dx stock engine. if so, would this be a great educational tool for a noob like myself to try?