jaje

I've been reading up on E85 over the past couple days when I got some time. Ethanol is a alcohol mix made in a naturally occuring process from mostly sugar or it can be made from cellulostic residues (this is the wikipedia definition not mine). It is also known as grain alcohol or ethyl alcohol. Alcohol from sugar yeast chemical reaction is what is commonly in our alcholic beverages. Alcohol from wood, corn, etc is normally called grain alcohol (everclear, moonshine, etc.)

Advantages:

- ethanol is made from discarded corn, switchgrass & woodchips all resources that we have in the US.

- The president has pushed us in this direction in the midst of $75 a barrel oil and a gas crunch crisis this summer (who knows what will happen this fall with hurricanes in the Gulf) and it also detracts from the war in Iraq and is a current political hot button b/c it's hitting voter's pocket books

- E85 is subsidized by the Federal Gov't (farm subsidies, etc.)

- Brazil has significanlty reduced their energy dependence on crude oil b/c of its switch to ethanol (if they can do it why can't we)

- E85 is better for the environment b/c it burns less carbon dioxide and burns cleaner than gasoline and especially diesel

- E85 has greater octane (~ 105)

- The Big 3 have sold E85 (Flex Fuel Vehicles) capable cars for well over a decade in order to escape great penalties b/c they are not able to meet CAFE ratings (they get penalized up to a billion a year and only have to add $200 in equipment to a car to make it a FFV)

(sounds good doesn't it...a magic answer to our energy dependence on unstable middle eastern oil in a period of ever growing demand)

Disadvantages:

- E85 is prone to vapor lock (absorbs water and prone to freezing more so than gasonline) and is corrosive so it can't be shipped via our gasoline/oil pipeline structure and has to be trucked from the midwest (it will take billions to retrofit our existing infrastructure)

- there are only 600 gas stations of the 200k in the US all in the midwest (200 in MN alone but only 5% of gas stations in MN!)

- E85 has 25% less energy density than gasoline meaning:
Normal Gas Powered V6 Explorer: 15 city / 20 hwy (most people don't get close to these numbers so combined you are around 14-15mpg)
E85 Explorer: 11 city / 15 hwy (on average 10-11 mpg)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass.htm (can compare other vehicles)
This is up to 25% less mileage per fillup (~100 miles based on a 25 gallon tank)

- creating ethanol from cellulostic residues is much less efficient than from sugar/yeast of which it is a much more natural process (Brazil is a major agricultural crop of sugar cane where the US is not nor can be)...in fact our current corn/switchgrass/woodchip status we do not have enough supplies to make this a nationwide rollout meaning we have to spend more time and land growing crops to create more (US land and labor is much more expensive than Brazil)...it takes 200% more cellulostic material (wood/corn/etc.) to make the same amount of alcohol compared to sugar/yeast combo

- cellulostic enzymes that create ethanol is expensive and time consuming

- greater than 50% mixture of ethanol has a lower flash point than gasoline making it more flammable and more dangerous

Some interesting articles:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/con...3931566801066/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol
http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00927/ethanol.htm

My Thoughts

- E85 is not the answer nor a magic bullet, it is really another unviable alternative which would require a huge rebuild of our entire infrastructure and by the time it would be ready a much more viable alternative such as fuel cells would be ready to reach critical mass

- I think the President is just trying to detract from his current woes (he is as a 32% approval ratings on of the 4 lowest scores in history)

- Here is what we need to do until we have fuel cells reaching mainstream (it is also the most simple explanation and archam's razor argument) - CONSERVE OUR SUPPLIES: we can drive less (more telecommuting, planned communities, car pooling, better & more accessible public transportation for large and mid size cities), drive more fuel efficient cars (sell gas guzzlers and buy cars that get 30mpg and they don't have to by hyrids!...if you need a large truck...buy a cheapo & safe small economy car for all other driving)...get a diesel powered car or upcoming HCCI

Magic Answer Alternatives
- Hybrids (easy and focus of mfgrs with current technology, however adds thousands to the expense and increases the complication of a vehicle, plus tax credit is going away)
- Hydrogen (decades out before viable, however home fueling station for house and car power)
- HCCI (gasoline engines work like diesel engines making 30% improvement in gas mileage without any other changes and actually reduces the complexity of the car b/c it takes away electrical ignition to swap for proven combustion ignition)
- increase technology of gasoline engines and cars (gas direct injection, cylinder shutdown, lighter development of cars/trucks meaning less weight to pull a truck means less engine is run hard to move it)
- BioDiesel (currently available but mfgrs have not adopted it as a strategy)
- CNG (nationwide supply and pipeline but mfgrs have not adopted and fueling stations are extremely rare but home fueling stations are readily available)
- Methane from White House & Congress BS (unlimited supply of hot air and complete bullshit however an effective capture mechanism has not yet been created)

more later...

G-M-W

I was watching a show on alternative fuels and they said that the US does not have enough farm space to produce food and e85 if we were to fully switch over to E85. This is why I think we need to keep developing our e85 technology as well as our hydrogen technology. To produce hydrogen all you need is water and energy(wind, hydro, solar).

If cars and trucks ran on hydrogen fuel cells and e85 we could become less dependent on oil faster. People could use whatever source of fuel is more plentiful in their area of the country. People on the coasts could use more hydrogen while people in the center of the country could use e85.

benjamin

I'm confident that the lasting replacement for gasoline will be hydrogen.

MellowGold

It is easy. Hydrogen + wind or nuclear power. Nuclear power is incredably more safe than it was 30 years ago. It is free, almost clean energy. Wind is even better. Put massive turbines in the ocean, where wind can be extremely strong and the coasts can be cheaply and cleanly powered.

We should spend all the money was can on clean energy, as opposed to alternatives to oil. It will pay off in the long run.

Kestrel

Personally, I think as far as cars go, electric cars will be the way to go in the future, especially in city commuting. The limitations on previous electric cars was energy density and charging times, but as these improve (which they have with newer lithium ion and lithium polymer cells) and as brushless motor efficiency goes up, electric cars are becoming more practical, and there is plenty of experience all over with electric cars. Plus, an electrical infrastructure exists (there isn't one for hydrogen or ethanol). Also, it is more energy efficient because the fuel "middle man" is eliminated (cutting out the efficiency hit for producing the fuel).

kill_kill_kill

Seconded, this would be a great source of jobs and a boost to the economy as well as the enviromental impacts.


As for hydrogen, my understanding is that currently the process to create a hydrogen fuel cell ends up releasing more pollution per unit of energy then an internal combustion engine + gasoline refinery, anyone know more, is that still true?


Does biodiesel have the same ups and downs as E85? Is it just grain alcohol with some sort of oil mixed in like regular diesel?



Also applaud to jaje for the thoughtful well written post, btu where's the part where you blame one of the major poitical parties for all the problems ever?

G-M-W

heres some good links on hydrogen if u wanna check em out

http://www.hydrogennow.org/HNews/Pre...ingStation.htm

http://www.shec-labs.com/index.htm

Johar

My mom used to work for a company that made ethanol that was capable of being burned for motor purposes. They were the ones to sort of pioneer it for that use. Need less to say, they were shut down due to the fact that petroleum companys have so much power. It is very possible to use hydrogen or ethanol as an alternative source of energy.

Duff Man

we can still use traditional gasoline and it's from our friends up north...this is, however, untill we find a controlled permanent means of power:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1225184.shtml

I just don't understand why this isn't get enough press and getting enough support.

98CoupeV6

I really think we'll see a day when we have, say, 20% cars using gasoline, 15% diesel, 20% hydrogen, 30% ethanol, etc. We'll have so many different fuel sources competing (just like in the early 1900's) that the prices of all of them will come down to a similiar low level.