Let's talk about torque !!
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Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: NYC/ the East.....
Let's talk about torque !!
OK maybe you guys can help me understand this whole torque "mystery",and the b series engines inherent lack of it, in relation to its performance. What i guess I really want to know is, why the hell does everyone moan and bish about Honda engines ( more specifically, the b and k series engines) having no torque ?
From what I understand, HP is some kind of function relative to the flywheel revolution speed (RPMs), while torque is basically the strength with which it turns, right ? (correct me if I'm wrong).
Well, why do B series motors NEED to have any more torque than they already have ? Integras can produce enough torque to chirp the tires at around 3k on the tachometer. This is perfect, because for an ideal drag launch you are always looking for that perfect medium between instant take off ( which is why you raise your RPMs before launch) and not burning out TOO much (so you do not lose any time on the starting line).
Wouldnt more torque , just mean more burning out at the starting line, and less distance travelled (due to the tires spinning but not covering any distance on the ground) ? I mean, If I have sufficient torque to get instant take-off at 3k, and bring me to the 5-7k poweband without a problem, and my tires are chirping every time I switch gears ( meaning that they are not bogged down by lack of torque), then why would I ever want any more torque than what I already have ? Doesn't more torque translate into slower 1/4 times because of more tire burning and less actual distance travelled ? Someone please shed some light !
From what I understand, HP is some kind of function relative to the flywheel revolution speed (RPMs), while torque is basically the strength with which it turns, right ? (correct me if I'm wrong).
Well, why do B series motors NEED to have any more torque than they already have ? Integras can produce enough torque to chirp the tires at around 3k on the tachometer. This is perfect, because for an ideal drag launch you are always looking for that perfect medium between instant take off ( which is why you raise your RPMs before launch) and not burning out TOO much (so you do not lose any time on the starting line).
Wouldnt more torque , just mean more burning out at the starting line, and less distance travelled (due to the tires spinning but not covering any distance on the ground) ? I mean, If I have sufficient torque to get instant take-off at 3k, and bring me to the 5-7k poweband without a problem, and my tires are chirping every time I switch gears ( meaning that they are not bogged down by lack of torque), then why would I ever want any more torque than what I already have ? Doesn't more torque translate into slower 1/4 times because of more tire burning and less actual distance travelled ? Someone please shed some light !
Wannabe yuppie
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: Madison, WI
Torque is a measure of force, horsepower is a measure of work. Work is the effect a force has over time.
HP = (lb/ft * RPM) / 5250
Generally what people mean when they say a car "has lots of torque" is that it produces a lot of torque at lower RPM and thus feels more responsive at those lower RPM.
That's it.
HP = (lb/ft * RPM) / 5250
Generally what people mean when they say a car "has lots of torque" is that it produces a lot of torque at lower RPM and thus feels more responsive at those lower RPM.
That's it.
Former Senior Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 391
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From: Oakland
Originally posted by MrFatBooty
Torque is a measure of force, horsepower is a measure of work. Work is the effect a force has over time.
HP = (lb/ft * RPM) / 5250
Generally what people mean when they say a car "has lots of torque" is that it produces a lot of torque at lower RPM and thus feels more responsive at those lower RPM.
That's it.
Torque is a measure of force, horsepower is a measure of work. Work is the effect a force has over time.
HP = (lb/ft * RPM) / 5250
Generally what people mean when they say a car "has lots of torque" is that it produces a lot of torque at lower RPM and thus feels more responsive at those lower RPM.
That's it.
As to why people assume Hondas need more? Blame it on the V8 culture. Americans love cars that throw them back in their seat as soon as they stomp the pedal. Hondas don't do that. Even one that has been turbocharged or supercharged might only gently press you back as speed increases. Americans like that neckbreaking snap from idle... its in our subconscious as an indicator of a powerful car. This is why even American I4's are usually torquier than their japanese counterparts.
Hellsing Agency
Joined: Mar 2002
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I think the shape of the torque curve is more important than anything. A Honda with a T-72 turbo is going to have a torque curve steeper than Everest, and will be pretty painful to drive.
People always mention a trade-off between torque and peak-horsepower... I don't have any concrete info to back this up but take a glance at the S2000. You can squeeze ungodly amounts of horsepower from a tiny engine, but you're more limited in the amount of torque it produces. In that sense the domestic V8 boys may have a valid point. Have you ever tried to drive a S2000 through bumper to bumper traffic? Not fun...
Shingo
People always mention a trade-off between torque and peak-horsepower... I don't have any concrete info to back this up but take a glance at the S2000. You can squeeze ungodly amounts of horsepower from a tiny engine, but you're more limited in the amount of torque it produces. In that sense the domestic V8 boys may have a valid point. Have you ever tried to drive a S2000 through bumper to bumper traffic? Not fun...
Shingo
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From: Dallas
torque is directly rated to the amount of air/fuel you can get into an engine.
the opel vectra race car (yes it is a real car, not just in GT3) spins 13,000 rpm, but it is only 3.0 liters n/a. produces close to 600hp, but still only makes 250 ft/lb or torque. of course, the torque at the wheels can be increased due to extremely low gearing that the high rev limit has. that is what makes it compete against BMW V8's.
the opel vectra race car (yes it is a real car, not just in GT3) spins 13,000 rpm, but it is only 3.0 liters n/a. produces close to 600hp, but still only makes 250 ft/lb or torque. of course, the torque at the wheels can be increased due to extremely low gearing that the high rev limit has. that is what makes it compete against BMW V8's.
Wannabe yuppie
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: Madison, WI
The Opel Vectras run in DTM against Mercedes CLKs and Audi TTs. BMW doesn't run in the series.
Anyway, just remember that horsepower is a calculation of torque so the two are always related. You can trade high-end torque for low-end torque and that's it. The way you make more power is to make more revs or to make more torque (at any point in the rev band). Yes, in effect if you increase the low-end torque of a motor you will decrease its high-end horsepower. Once again, and I can't say it enough, THIS IS BECAUSE HORSEPOWER IS A CALCULATION OF TORQUE AND RPM.
Anyway, just remember that horsepower is a calculation of torque so the two are always related. You can trade high-end torque for low-end torque and that's it. The way you make more power is to make more revs or to make more torque (at any point in the rev band). Yes, in effect if you increase the low-end torque of a motor you will decrease its high-end horsepower. Once again, and I can't say it enough, THIS IS BECAUSE HORSEPOWER IS A CALCULATION OF TORQUE AND RPM.