Okay, I have read some more and I must say, I think most of the responses have been polite and well put. but you must understand that you are insulting my pride and joy. I forgot the most important part of owning my civics. Civics don't look fast? For the trained eye and ear, my civic looks and sounds fast. I can always tell a true enthusiast when they just give a thumbs up rather than try me. I can't tell you how many times I have been revved at by ignorant ricers with tin can exhausts on their 90HP 1.5L's. I don't waste my time. I have also been laughed at once when I pulled into the staging lane next to a really tight WS6. All the laughing stopped when all the F body fans watched a ten year old civic hand a WS6 it's ass. The first time I beat an SS the guy was telling me how he missed third this and that rather than just giving me my props as I would have given him. Yes, I have been spanked badly at the track on many occassions but for the most part, the people that have beaten me have spent much more money to do it. There is nothing like spanking a brand spanking new cobra in a fairly stock looking (minus rims and intercooler) civic EX coupe. The gratification that my lil' 1.6L just handed out a major ass kicking is more than enough for me. but I do have respect for anything fast. A long time friend and I go at it all the time about this same thing. He drives a 9 second AMC Rambler. To each his own. Everyones different, some run NOS some run N/A, some run blown. I could add a 100 shot of NOS tomorrow and be in the 12's but that's not how I want t get their. This argument could be made a million different ways but if you don't like civics, you don't like civics. My dad hates my cars, but he respects it because he knows any one of them would whoop ass on any one of the "Muscle cars" he has owned in his lifetime. My dad has a 74 (maybe 75') Pontiac LeMans GT that I doubt would be able to out run my Stock Nissan Maxima GXE. But my dad thinks that thing is the shit. And I love that car too but the whole muscle car era is highly overrated in my opinion a sfar as the speed of the cars go. Okay, I'm getting off topic now but I think you get the point. You never convince a Mustang lover that the Camaro is a better car and you'll never convince me that a civic has no business being the platform for a serious performance machine. Oh, and your statement about japanese racing shows what little you know about automotive performance as a whole. BTW, I have never been beaten by an Mister 2 or any toyota (including a 97' Supra TT) for that matter. But I love both cars.