no way the 711s are better than the 712s..

as for the 712s themselves, i remember when it was the bandwagon choice, and everybody loved them. then all of a sudden, they were crap.

i had them for a while. they were great for the price. hell, they still are. i upgraded to the MXs because i wanted a little more stick, but if cost was a factor, i would have gotten the 712s again.

and i'm sorry, but you can't just negate the price. "Compared to everything else price excluded"... come on now. you know you can't make comparisons like that.