Thanks guys for all the replies and info. As far as the seen goes over here, well there is no seen. Every last one of them drives either a Golf, Polo (smaller than a Golf) or an Opel. That is of course outside of all the BMW's. So yes you are right, they take huge pride in their cars. Where we live is right on the Belgiun and Dutch border. This is the black hole of Germany. Everyone has said such wonderful things about Germany, well they aren't talking about this place. So maybe in other places, better places, there is a bigger seen. It gets a little better when you cross the border into Holland (10min. away). You see a little more variety, but pretty much just all VW's. Let's just say that since I have been here (2000) I have seen 2 civic R's that I can remember. Thanks again everyone.