jesus, is this "gang bang the 'liberal'?"

I swear, put something in the title that say "for all you who oppose this and that" and the exact opposites will be posting.....

lets see.

clinton had the two embassy bombings, I guess the first world trade center even though it wasn't a major deal, oklahoma city, and the marine base. That = 5

bush has had the second world trade center, pentigon, bali bombing, iraqi embassy, the iraqi oil line, anthrax in the mail, a virginia sniper (almost two, but the second's drug related). That = 7, and I'm sure theres some shit I'm forgetting, so there's probably more than that.

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Well when people say we should not be going after terrorists and we would be better off by taking that approach it is only logical to bring up what Clinton did and the results of such actions (or inactions depending upon which side of the coin you are on). I think Clinton showed what happens when you take a pacifist, reactionary stance towards terrorism.[/B][/QUOTE]

true, but under clintons watch, we didn't lose 3000 american civilians. I'm sure if we had, things would have been a tad bit different. Concur?

But then again, in going after terrorists, we are doing nothing but what Isreal has been trying to do against palistinians for over 30 years now. And what has their situation showed us? unless you are incabible of learning from the past, I think my analogy should be clear.

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And how so? Your arguments from the left are getting pretty weak. [/B][/QUOTE]

well, when you say
lets say there's conventional warfare that happens. Where would that come from? Probably N. Korea. And they can blow the shit out of the west coast (well, they have missles capable of sending nuclear payload to the west coast. It all depends if you beleive they have WMD, which, ironiclly enough, the same people who think Iraq did have them thinks N.Korea doesn't have them. ha)

now then, uncoventional warfare has shown us that at most, they can knock out a couple thousand depending on how big of a building they hit. Clearly, airplanes won't be used anymore. That was a one time deal. If you honestly think they can do that again, you're dead wrong. passengers wouldn't allow it.

As of late, terrorist attacks haven't delt too much of a blow. At most, 20 or 30 people get killed, and lots more wounded.

Therefor, it would be more devistating to be attacked conventionally than unconventionally, thus making your statement the worst ever, like I said in the first place.

and besides, you're praying that nothing happens, but if it does, make it light. Thats bullshit. This country has fucked up so much, do you really think that God (not your bibles version) would let this country off with a slap on the wrist? We've raped this planet of its reasources, spoiled its soil and water, layed havoc on its natural features, and all for what? Convienience? Money? Power?

I love the freedoms this country provides to us, but even they come with a price that may not be worth it. And even then, what makes us free? That we can choose our dinner? That we can decide what we want to do with our lives? First of all, we are not free, we are just bitches for the government. Cash Cows. Without us, who's money would our government depend upon to squander $100 on bolts and $500 on toilets. And you defend this government, who until the 60's radical movents actually affected it, would assassinate leaders that wouldn cooperate with us?

Second, freedom isn't all that great a privledge, either. Sure, you can do whatever you want, but how many people really know what they want to do with themselves? Sure, some people actually do, but if I had a dollar for each friend of mine who had no clue what was next, I'd have alot of dollars. If I was not free to choose, on the other hand, then life would be simple, having to be forced into a job, like it or not. Sure, its not the best sounding situation, but you know whats gonna happen, right? And you defend this government, who until the 60's radical movents actually affected it, would assassinate leaders that wouldn cooperate with us?

but third, maybe its just the catch 22 of life. That no matter what, there's gonna be ups and downs, and nothings perfect, all that. Not only would that prove my theory above, it would also prove not even the all mighty US government is perfect, too. Like you conservatives so love to beleive. Guess what, they're fucking you, too. Not just me.

Of course, aides and liutenants are always replaceable when you have people heavly against an oppressive government. Maybe you don't think the US is oppressive, but then again, look where we are.

I will admit invading Afganistan was initially a good thing. I talked with my father about it, and although I'm very picky on the whole idea, I still understand the Bushies first moves in the war on terror.

Invading afganistan wasn't a total mistake, but forgetting about bin ladin in favor of Saddam, and invading iraq, was.

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Iraq's former first sons are dead

so they were a little sadistic and they did some crazy shit back in the day. Do you really think the death of his sons was a big break in the war on terror? Maybe they were, from propagandist point of veiw. But thats just propaganda.

the real irony: showing dead corpses on the news was alright as long as its the "bad guy" but if they're US troops getting a beating, thats down right disrespectful. ha.

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and countless numbers of former Baathist Party members have been arrested after 6 months.

but the guy that really matters is still loose. Funny...

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A provisional government has been formed leading to the creation of a democratic government in Iraq...one which is not oppresive.

wow, and that really matters to all of us.

not to sound cold, but if they didn't want an oppresive government, God forbid they overthrow the current one. I seem to remember taking history class and learning thats what this country had to do, and its what france had to do. And many other nations, as well, including India.

We didn't need to be making the free. They should have free'd themselves.

also, the provisional government in Afganistan is a joke, so how good can Iraq's be?

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Thanks to America finally standing up and saying enough to terrorism and its sponsors the world is a lot safer place than it was 2 years ago!

say that in two more years after another attack has happend because the US wouldn't ease its iron fist.


well, if I were president, I would remove my troops from foreigne countrys and bring them home, I would reaffirme my beleif in the UN, and I would have this country become pasifistic once more.

We're the land of the free. That means we're the land of the mutt's. Everyones outcasts at some point in time or another have came here for refuge. And now were saying everyone else is wrong? Maybe since we're made up of every nationallity, we should respect each nationallity equilly, and respect every country equally, wether we like them or not. If you want change, you must be the change you want. If america wants peace, it should through peace.

"Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity."

true, but terrorist DO understand equallity, fairness, and demands.

IE, Isreal/palistine: The palistinians want prisoners removed from jails, the isreals keep refusing, or removing a fraction of the prisioners that have been there for "wrong reasons." Of course, maybe isreal had all reasons to jail them, but isreal has clearly shown they are as far from right as the palistinians.

Because isreal beleives they should stay in jail, palistinans get pissed and strap bombs to their chest. Then the "road map" falls apart.

If only isreal sucked up its pride, and actually did what it should have, then there would be one more bus in the west bank.

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Which is why it is up to us to get them first.

it is not up to us. We would like to beleive it so.

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I hate to keep reminding people that this isn't the good ole days when our enemies were empires, armies, and rulers. It's crazed lunatics without regard for anything or anyone.

your right, and your wrong.

we still have enemy empires. North Korea comes to mind.

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The way they see it, it is their mission to die.

for what the beleive in. Frankly, its the US marines mission to die for what the beleive in, freedom. Couldn't you say the same thing about the other side?

oh wait, we all forgot the other side is like that for a reason, that there's two sides to the coin. What am I thinking....

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Either die trying to kill thousands, dozens, or one. So the only way to eliminate terrorism is to eliminate the terrorists and their sources. That's the only way to stop them.

But if the terrorist were an evil enemy empire, such as north korea, this would be a very simple task. invade the nation, overthrow the government, set up something new.

But as iraq and afganistan have showed us, its much easier said than done.

oh yeah, vietnam showed us the same thing, too.

simple. Pull out of iraq.

blame bush, he got us into this mess. Its called putting gasoline on the fire.

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The UN is there to help the Iraqi's rebuild after the war,

but the UN didn't even want a war with Iraq in the first place. Or do you not remember that We didn't show them convincing enough evidence, which most of it was false. Irony.....

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the Jordanian's are a fellow Arab country they attacked, and blowing up oil and water pipelines does nothing but hurt ordinary Iraqis.

actually, it hurts the US more than the Iraqi's. We're more dependent on their oil than they are.

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They do not listen to reason...all they are is a group of uncivilized, crazed lunatics.

so what makes us so much better than them? We sure as hell don't listen to reason.

what makes us so much more civilized? Technology? Freedom?

turn on the tv for 10 minutes and flip through channels. Doing so will show you this country has done nothing but produced the same crap over and over. But we keep forgetting. MTV is warping the minds of millions of kids. Jerry springer is making white trash famous. Oprah keeps making money off her weigh-loss systems that don't even work for her. Is that not convincing enough that we have done nothing but regressed? It sure is for me.

why? What does it matter what I beleive? So you can say I'm wrong?

I'm no more wrong than any of you.

but come to think of it, you're more wrong than me. I recongnise the two-sidedness of the situation, and through that, I develope a more thoughtful opinion. You guys just act from instinct, which would tell us to retaliate when blows have been given.

but maybe the fact that I haven't been in a physical fight may have something to do with it, too.

what, was 9-11-01 not enough? I think people have waken as much as they can.

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It is not just the US they are after..... they are after anyone who believes in our rights as humans granted by a higher power to be who we are, and not what others say we must be. To believe in who or what we wish, to dress how we wish, to have the friends and family and make our life whatever we want.

oh, the ignorance.....

I'm not saying God didn't give us what we have. That would be stupid, because techniclly, he did. It was all nessisary.

the irony behind this is that Our country is built on the blood of the native americans, and of the slaves. And now its being build on the blood of "terrorsts" who threaten our lives.

Guess what people, they're fucking us. They're scaring us so we'll listen to them and only them. They're calling sheep when there's nothing to worry about. They come up with a color coded system that doesn't do shit. Its yellow, look out. Something might happen. But ultimatly, it doesn't.

Bin laden didn't call do attack us because of our culture, or beleifs. Buy a book called Holy War Inc. and turn to page 95. There you will read why Bin laden called a holy war on us. in his own words, kinda. Translations from Arab to English can lose the metaphorical meaning sometimes.

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The UN is the global representation of the union of nations with that commonality, and it is now time for the UN to show it's vallor (yes, even you, France and Germany). Let's see the UN take charge united and throw the bickering out the window.

What does that matter? We went over the UN's head. You really think they're gonna be a concern anymore? Not to bush.

ok, "dl" you want a solution?

actually, there's none I can give, honestly. After all, the reality of life is that everything is happening for a reason, and that everything leads up to a final moment. Given that that finally moment is certain, its not silly to say that everything that leads up to that final moment must be set in stone, even though it doesn't appear so.

so therefore this war on terror is supposed to happen. Everything is right on track as far as human history.

But just because something is happening doesn't make it right. If we hadn't slaughtered all those indians, we wouldn't have all this land. Sure, killing them all wasn't right, but as far as american is concerned, the ends always justify the means.

I concur

oh, come on. I can't beleive you. if something isn't there, how can you say it truly exists?

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But then they cannot explain where they went. And I am only talking about the known WMD, the ones the UN saw,

actually, the reason we were so set on it was because some of the technologies came from the US.

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that Saddam admitted to having, that are now missing.

when did saddam admit to having them? I clearly remember Iraq sending out statments that they did NOT have WMD, and that the US was fabricating lies. Turns out the later statement was true, given the turnout of bush's state of the union address. But no one seemed to care that he's info was bs, because he said he thought it was true, even though we all know they know it wasn't totally true.

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It was largely because of these weapons that were unacounted for that we went to war with Iraq.

and, wow, they're still unacounted for, after 6 months.

but vietnam took over 6 years, so we've got some time ahead of us.

One final thing:

It appears to me everyone who attacks me and my idea's is the same typical bible-thumping, gun-totting conservative. You're all the same. hicks. But thats just my irrational opinion.

the reality is that you're conservative because you don't like to form your own thoughts. Its the same reason you're a bible thumper.

Now, thats not to say I think the bible is wrong. There's alot of ideaology that's very true. The Koran also speaks the same basic principals. As do most major religions. Rights and wrongs, moral coding. The true pricipals of God.

But the truth is God didn't write the bible, and that alot of things in it arn't acurate. Why, because man wrote it, and man is anything but perfect.

so what does this have to do with you being conservative? Well, lets say God is bush, and the bible is the governments veiws on things. If you were any good at association, you'll catch my drift.

ok, bring on your next wave of ignorance. I will be looking forward to laughing alot.