Toda Header vs OEM JDM 4-1 (Detail inside)?
10-25-2002, 08:58 AM
#1
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Ok, here is my question.
Toda header we know makes more power than a JDM 4-1
BUT . . . How much more would you guess a Toda header woudl make then a JDM 4-1 if one were to keep the stock exhaust?
The tests we have seen are with an SMS cat back which is nice but I am old and want my R with it's ATS Final Drive to not get any less highway worthy.
I made very little power with my POWER FC and have considered selling the PFC, buying a toda header, selling my JDM, buying a fields unit for VTEC and fuel (VAFC does not seem to work on my car; thottle reading issue just with all VAFCs) and calling it done for a while. Woudl consider Toda A's and an SMS cat back in the future (3+ years) when I pay it off and have something else to drive if needed.
Thoughts?
BTW, plan for now is to try and have the Power FC tuned again. We were a little unprepared for the last session and I want to gibe it a fair shot.
Toda header we know makes more power than a JDM 4-1
BUT . . . How much more would you guess a Toda header woudl make then a JDM 4-1 if one were to keep the stock exhaust?
The tests we have seen are with an SMS cat back which is nice but I am old and want my R with it's ATS Final Drive to not get any less highway worthy.
I made very little power with my POWER FC and have considered selling the PFC, buying a toda header, selling my JDM, buying a fields unit for VTEC and fuel (VAFC does not seem to work on my car; thottle reading issue just with all VAFCs) and calling it done for a while. Woudl consider Toda A's and an SMS cat back in the future (3+ years) when I pay it off and have something else to drive if needed.
Thoughts?
BTW, plan for now is to try and have the Power FC tuned again. We were a little unprepared for the last session and I want to gibe it a fair shot.
10-25-2002, 11:50 AM
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Well if you are considering selling your Power FC, I would be extremely interested in buying it from you!!!!!
On a side note, the throttle reading problem is easily fixed by adjusting your TPS sensor, and making sure with a voltmeter that at idle it's at .45V, that's often a problem people face when they don't solder in the wires for the VAFC.
As far as the Toda to JDM 4-1, my given understanding is that it really doesn't flow a hell of a lot better, but it does give more power over the whole RPM range rather then just up top, the one to go with from what I hear is the Hytech, the guy that built my motor(Larry at Endyn), recomended the Hytech, saying he's dynoed everything else, and seems to get the best numbers by far with the Hytech.
Though I'm a big fan of the Power FC, all the different people I've talked to say they make more HP with a Hondata or that new AEM ecu, you may wanna consider either.....
Toda A's in my opinion are worthless, you said you're not making a lot of power with that PFC, try spending almost a grand on cams and cam gears, only to find out that you only get about 8whp, how pissed will you be then??????? I've done a pretty fair amount of dyno tunning with the Spec-A, becuase they make good turbo cams and good reliable road race cams, but for that much money, it's not even worth doing. If you're gonna go Toda, go Spec-B, or even the Jun Type-3. If you don't so much care about the name I made and extra 22whp with the Skunk2 Stage-2 cams, and the idle really isn't a heck of a lot different from stock.
Just out of curiosity, where are you located in refference to you a authorized power fc dealer, they ussualy do the tunning on a laptop, and takes a fraction of the time, not to mention, they ussualy know all the in and outs of the system, you may wanna look into it?????
Let me know how much you want for that Power FC......
Later,
Aj
On a side note, the throttle reading problem is easily fixed by adjusting your TPS sensor, and making sure with a voltmeter that at idle it's at .45V, that's often a problem people face when they don't solder in the wires for the VAFC.
As far as the Toda to JDM 4-1, my given understanding is that it really doesn't flow a hell of a lot better, but it does give more power over the whole RPM range rather then just up top, the one to go with from what I hear is the Hytech, the guy that built my motor(Larry at Endyn), recomended the Hytech, saying he's dynoed everything else, and seems to get the best numbers by far with the Hytech.
Though I'm a big fan of the Power FC, all the different people I've talked to say they make more HP with a Hondata or that new AEM ecu, you may wanna consider either.....
Toda A's in my opinion are worthless, you said you're not making a lot of power with that PFC, try spending almost a grand on cams and cam gears, only to find out that you only get about 8whp, how pissed will you be then??????? I've done a pretty fair amount of dyno tunning with the Spec-A, becuase they make good turbo cams and good reliable road race cams, but for that much money, it's not even worth doing. If you're gonna go Toda, go Spec-B, or even the Jun Type-3. If you don't so much care about the name I made and extra 22whp with the Skunk2 Stage-2 cams, and the idle really isn't a heck of a lot different from stock.
Just out of curiosity, where are you located in refference to you a authorized power fc dealer, they ussualy do the tunning on a laptop, and takes a fraction of the time, not to mention, they ussualy know all the in and outs of the system, you may wanna look into it?????
Let me know how much you want for that Power FC......
Later,
Aj
10-25-2002, 12:17 PM
#3
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AJ, sent you an IM.
I picked spec A's cause breaking timing belts with Spec B's or running a different timing belt to prevent this makes me nervous. I would probably consider Jun 3's before spec B's. But don't know enough about Jun to know their issues with timing belts and such.
I went so far as to switch throttle bodies with different TPS's onto my car to try and fix the problem to no avail. I also did solder on all of my connections and even removed the VAFC entirely and then rewired/soldered it back in and it still didn't work. Got mad, sold it, got the power FC.
Only headers I have really considered due to price are the Toda and SMS header (Hytech knock off). Hytech is just too darn exspensive. Just one wasn't sure if it was worth it and 2 if a stock exhaust would further exaggerate the little gain I woudl see.
I picked spec A's cause breaking timing belts with Spec B's or running a different timing belt to prevent this makes me nervous. I would probably consider Jun 3's before spec B's. But don't know enough about Jun to know their issues with timing belts and such.
I went so far as to switch throttle bodies with different TPS's onto my car to try and fix the problem to no avail. I also did solder on all of my connections and even removed the VAFC entirely and then rewired/soldered it back in and it still didn't work. Got mad, sold it, got the power FC.
Only headers I have really considered due to price are the Toda and SMS header (Hytech knock off). Hytech is just too darn exspensive. Just one wasn't sure if it was worth it and 2 if a stock exhaust would further exaggerate the little gain I woudl see.
10-25-2002, 04:50 PM
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Well, i'm not sure where you've gotten your info about breaking timing belts, but I've been crew chief of a small road race team, and worked at performance shops for a very long time, and have never seen a timing belt break on any of our cars, even the 12 hour enduro cars that sit between 7 and 11 thousand RPMs with only 120 mins worth of down time for the twelve hours. The ussual reason for timing belts snapping is to much or too little tension, that and non-factory, poorly machined cam gears can also affect them.
As far as the TPS, you don't need to replace the whole throttle body, or even the TPS, you need to adjust it, in order to do this, you put a voltmeter on the middle wire of the TPS(for OBD2), and check the voltage, with a V-AFC or a comverted OBD1 ECU, it's ussualy right about .49 volts, but you need it to be right around .45V, otherwise you'll get an idle that surges, ussualy between 1000 and 1600 RPMs, it'll also tend to be jerky at low RPMs. You can adjust it by turning it clock wise or counter closkwise on the throttle body. Keep in mind from the factory that the TPS is rivited on there, and you need to either us nuts when you remove the rivets, or pull the studs and use bolts.
Personally I'd stick with the Power FC.
On another note, the Toda is close to a grand, not sure about the SMS, but the Hytech is 1300, if your gonna be spending close to a grand on a header, whats 400 bucks? Besides, like anything else, you really do get what you pay for. Either way, good luck with it!!
Aj
As far as the TPS, you don't need to replace the whole throttle body, or even the TPS, you need to adjust it, in order to do this, you put a voltmeter on the middle wire of the TPS(for OBD2), and check the voltage, with a V-AFC or a comverted OBD1 ECU, it's ussualy right about .49 volts, but you need it to be right around .45V, otherwise you'll get an idle that surges, ussualy between 1000 and 1600 RPMs, it'll also tend to be jerky at low RPMs. You can adjust it by turning it clock wise or counter closkwise on the throttle body. Keep in mind from the factory that the TPS is rivited on there, and you need to either us nuts when you remove the rivets, or pull the studs and use bolts.
Personally I'd stick with the Power FC.
On another note, the Toda is close to a grand, not sure about the SMS, but the Hytech is 1300, if your gonna be spending close to a grand on a header, whats 400 bucks? Besides, like anything else, you really do get what you pay for. Either way, good luck with it!!
Aj
10-25-2002, 06:17 PM
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10-25-2002, 07:07 PM
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I've seen the test. I think it is a great start and better than any other test. It doesn't address all the questions I have and that is why I was asking for more real world experience. THey did no testing with Stock exhaust and did some strange baseline vs hader testing with cats and test pipes.
11-06-2002, 02:36 PM
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I'm in a similar situation with Trey... I'll be upgrading to Toda 4-2-1 over my JDM ITR 4-1 jet-hotted header. (whew, wordy).
My reasoning is Toda 4-2-1 flows a bit better than JDM ITR 4-1 and it does not hang low like JDM ITR 4-1. I've seen plenty of JDM 4-1 headers banged up and with Toda 4-2-1, you'll bust the oilpan before the header.
My reasoning is Toda 4-2-1 flows a bit better than JDM ITR 4-1 and it does not hang low like JDM ITR 4-1. I've seen plenty of JDM 4-1 headers banged up and with Toda 4-2-1, you'll bust the oilpan before the header.
11-07-2002, 02:04 AM
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[quote:c89273596c]My reasoning is Toda 4-2-1 flows a bit better than JDM ITR 4-1 [/quote:c89273596c]
Actually flows tons more than the JDM 4-1 :wink:
Money difference is there. The way I see it, if you want the best, why not wait longer for it?
Actually flows tons more than the JDM 4-1 :wink:
Money difference is there. The way I see it, if you want the best, why not wait longer for it?