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Thread: ls vtech build

  1. #1
    Senior Member 92b18hatch's Avatar
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    ls vtec build

    im planing on building an ls vtec, i got a b18b1 block and was wondering what head i should use? b16 or a gsr head???also should i keep the bottom end stock or what rout should i go there? it will be going into a 95 ex and i want it to be pretty quick. just lookin for some ideas
    Last edited by 92b18hatch; 04-18-06 at 01:44 PM.
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    Eric Wood ewood87's Avatar
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    so.. your putting a cordless phone on a b-series block? are you going to be using caller id?
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  3. #3
    Pull my finger RicoD's Avatar
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    vtec...

    and which ever head u can find cheaper...and in better condition... some say b16 some say GSR... either will work, i have read *but yet to have experience myself* that the gsr head can produce more decent numbers...

    my crvtec had a b16 head mainly cuz it was cheaper than the GSR head i found

    as for the rest, id say the usual ARP headstuds, rod bolts, etc....
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    Senior Member 92b18hatch's Avatar
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    yeah im going to be using called id
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    Senior Member AcuraFanatic's Avatar
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    GS-R head is significantly better than either the B16A or B16B heads.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AF
    GS-R head is significantly better than either the B16A or B16B heads.
    WRONG!!! First of all, the B16B is a CTR head, which comes ported and polished from the factory. That is by far the best head of the three you listed. Secondly, the B16 head is known to flow better in stock condition than the GSR head does. Some mild porting of either head would erase any differences in performance- however stock for stock, the B16 head is a better performer. If the choice is between a B16 or a GSR head, I would go with whichever one is the better deal. It should be known however that the B16 performs a touch better straight out of the box.

    As for the bottom end, it all depends on your budget. Building an LSVTEC motor is a motor that is made to REV. Vtec engines have very good top end, and high redlines. The problem here is that the B18B bottom end was not made to rev to 8000+ RPMS. If i built an LSVTEC on an OEM bottom end, I would recommend not to rev past the original redline of the B18B. Building the bottom end (and raising the compression at the same time) can give you far better reliability, as well as power. Forged internals are a good route, but arent always nessecary. IMO, an OEM VTEC bottom end will suffice if you are low on cash. For example, to bump compression on my GSR motor a bit, im installing new rings with B16 pistons.

    Remember, for this build you will need (for best results):
    A GSR or B16 tranny
    A VTEC water pump and timing belt
    Any you will want to have your oil galley filler. This is because the B18B does not have a hole for the oil galley, so oil can sit on the head gasket. This risks blowing the gasket. You can have it filled and machined down at any machine shop. If you are having a shop do the whole build- make sure they do this (some shops dont).

    As im sure you know, the LSVTEC build is a good way to build power, but it can also be a good way to blow up your motor. Make sure the shop that does it has lots of experience doing it. My shops head mechanic has an LSVTEC daily driver that is turboed under 10PSI of boost. Im comfortable that he knows what hes doing. The whole job should cost you right around $2000 if done at a shop, not including tuning. I would also recommend running a VAFC2 (VAFC is a bit outdated, and has some known problems).

    Good luck, and feel free to PM me with any questions.

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    Senior Member AcuraFanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirfallsalot243
    WRONG!!! First of all, the B16B is a CTR head, which comes ported and polished from the factory. That is by far the best head of the three you listed.
    Until you show me dyno results proving me otherwise, I've seen the same engine dyno'd with both a B16A and B18C1 head (stock), and the GS-R head made close to an extra 10HP. The B16A head does flow better than either the GS-R or USDM B16A, I do take that back.
    Last edited by AcuraFanatic; 04-18-06 at 10:53 PM.
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    dock vtech or sock vtech?

  9. #9
    Pull my finger RicoD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirfallsalot243
    WRONG!!! First of all, the B16B is a CTR head, which comes ported and polished from the factory. That is by far the best head of the three you listed. Secondly, the B16 head is known to flow better in stock condition than the GSR head does. Some mild porting of either head would erase any differences in performance- however stock for stock, the B16 head is a better performer. If the choice is between a B16 or a GSR head, I would go with whichever one is the better deal. It should be known however that the B16 performs a touch better straight out of the box.

    As for the bottom end, it all depends on your budget. Building an LSVTEC motor is a motor that is made to REV. Vtec engines have very good top end, and high redlines. The problem here is that the B18B bottom end was not made to rev to 8000+ RPMS. If i built an LSVTEC on an OEM bottom end, I would recommend not to rev past the original redline of the B18B. Building the bottom end (and raising the compression at the same time) can give you far better reliability, as well as power. Forged internals are a good route, but arent always nessecary. IMO, an OEM VTEC bottom end will suffice if you are low on cash. For example, to bump compression on my GSR motor a bit, im installing new rings with B16 pistons.

    Remember, for this build you will need (for best results):
    A GSR or B16 tranny
    A VTEC water pump and timing belt
    Any you will want to have your oil galley filler. This is because the B18B does not have a hole for the oil galley, so oil can sit on the head gasket. This risks blowing the gasket. You can have it filled and machined down at any machine shop. If you are having a shop do the whole build- make sure they do this (some shops dont).

    As im sure you know, the LSVTEC build is a good way to build power, but it can also be a good way to blow up your motor. Make sure the shop that does it has lots of experience doing it. My shops head mechanic has an LSVTEC daily driver that is turboed under 10PSI of boost. Im comfortable that he knows what hes doing. The whole job should cost you right around $2000 if done at a shop, not including tuning. I would also recommend running a VAFC2 (VAFC is a bit outdated, and has some known problems).

    Good luck, and feel free to PM me with any questions.
    for someone that had written alot... well... i just dont trust ur judgement ever since u said use a VAFC2.... for several reasons but mainly cuz the VAFC2 is usually better with the K series itll work for the B,H, etc...but better for the K
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    The GSR head will yield higher compression that will make more power than a half assed factory ported B16 head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RicoD
    for someone that had written alot... well... i just dont trust ur judgement ever since u said use a VAFC2.... for several reasons but mainly cuz the VAFC2 is usually better with the K series itll work for the B,H, etc...but better for the K
    There is a reason why apexi had to upgrade the vafc.

    do you know what tuning resolution means?
    if you have only 8 rpm points to set your manifold pressure voltage on the vafc1, what happens?
    Let's say you pick 1000, 3000, 4000, 5000, 6000, 6500, 7000, 8000 rpm as your tuning points, what happens in between those points?
    According to apex, there vafc1 assumes that the manifold pressure voltage will be linear in between 2 rpm points.

    What does this mean?:

    Let's pick a random numbers for setting for the MAP voltage change on the vafc1.

    5000 rpm - 4
    6000 rpm - 8
    So at 5500 rpm ( a point you did not set and cannot set on the vafc1) the setting is assumed to be - 6.

    is -6 the best setting for you? what if it isn't? what if your torque dips at 5500 rpm and the af ratio reads 12:1 still?

    You can't do anything about it.

    You are stuck with the setting because you can't enter more than 8 rpm tuning points.

    This continues up the ladder...a standalone has the best tuning resolution.

    The only reason people think VAFC2 is MAINLY for K Series motors is because it allows you to adjust the intake cam degree of the I-VTEC system. It contains many upgrades that were beneficial for B and H series.

    AF, if you saw a GSR head make 10hp more than a B16 head on the same motor, than that GSR head was NOT stock. I can guarentee that stock for stock, the b16 makes more power. While I dont have a dyno slip to post, nor am i going to go to the trouble to get one to prove you wrong- i have seen it in person, and i know it to be true.

    The B16 head is essentially the SAME as a B18C5 ITR head. The only differences are the actual internals. The bare head is almost identical. Ever heard of a B16 head on a B18C1 block? Its called a poor mans type R, because the B16 head has smaller combustion chambers yeilding higher compression.
    Last edited by Sirfallsalot243; 04-18-06 at 11:48 PM.

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    Senior Member AcuraFanatic's Avatar
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    You lose 0.5 compression B16A vs. B18C1, but whatever floats your boat dude. I can't argue results.
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    Upon researching, youre right, the GSR head does give a higher compression ratio- but I still maintain that the B16 makes slightly more power.

    Heres a good read on LSVTEC:
    http://www.superhonda.com/forum/show...threadid=55995

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    Pull my finger RicoD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirfallsalot243
    The B16 head is essentially the SAME as a B18C5 ITR head. The only differences are the actual internals. The bare head is almost identical. Ever heard of a B16 head on a B18C1 block? Its called a poor mans type R, because the B16 head has smaller combustion chambers yeilding higher compression.
    lots of info... i didnt really bother reading...

    how ever that comment is somewhat odd... its like saying the B18C GSR is the same as the B18C Type R... only difference is the internals
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    Senior Member AcuraFanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicoD
    lots of info... i didnt really bother reading...

    how ever that comment is somewhat odd... its like saying the B18C GSR is the same as the B18C Type R... only difference is the internals
    He said the B18C5 and B16A head is very similar, which it is.
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    Pull my finger RicoD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AF
    He said the B18C5 and B16A head is very similar, which it is.
    just like the B18C GSR is the same casting as the B18C Type R yet different internals... that part just... gah nevermind
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicoD
    just like the B18C GSR is the same casting as the B18C Type R yet different internals... that part just... gah nevermind
    No where did I say that. I stated that the B16 and B18C5 are almost identical heads, aside from the upgraded type r valvetrain. The only point where i was incorrect was where I stated that the B16 gives a higher CR, which it doesnt. The difference in power from the B18C1 to the B16 (however minimal it may be, which is still open for debate) is due to the better flow of the B16 head.

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    Senior Member 92b18hatch's Avatar
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    so gsr would be the way to go with a head. what rods should i go with? oem rods from the b18b cant handle 8,000?
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    I <3 Boost dubcac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirfallsalot243
    No where did I say that. I stated that the B16 and B18C5 are almost identical heads, aside from the upgraded type r valvetrain. The only point where i was incorrect was where I stated that the B16 gives a higher CR, which it doesnt. The difference in power from the B18C1 to the B16 (however minimal it may be, which is still open for debate) is due to the better flow of the B16 head.
    A few points:

    1. The head casting is identical. This is why ITR heads are stamped PR3. Everyone knows this. Have you ever seen the flowbench numbers of a B16 head vs GSR head? I have. They flow very similarly, but the GSR flows better at higher valve lift. I know all about the poor man's ITR, but the people that did that weren't ditching their GSR head...they were people that had a GSR short block, and no head to go with it. Obviously they're going to go for the cheaper B16 head. Also, if you find a cheap first gen b16 head, you're going to need to replace the internals anyways...those valvesprings are terrible. If you want to see a dyno chart of an LSVTEC build with a B16 head vs GSR head, I'll gladly post that for you.

    http://www.importreview.com/reviews/...sB16Ahead.html

    Identical bottom ends, the B16 head was ported by portflow, had springs/retainers, ITR manifold, and a CTR intake cam/ITR exhaust cam. GSR head was stock, with ITR cams. The GSR head made 7whp and 4wtq over the B16 head, which utilized a higher flowing manifold, more aggressive intake cam, and a port job. If you want to maintain that the B16 head is better, that's fine...but you're wrong. I bet that guarantee isn't looking so hot on your part right now is it. I would trust one of the best engine builders and tuners on the entire west coast over some douches at SHO any day of the week. Do you even know why the ITR uses the PR4/B16 head? The GSR got the new technology honda developed, but they used the PR4 head on the ITR because they were overstocked of head castings at the factory, and they wanted to get rid of them. So take that for what you want. You can't dispute or debate numbers like that, I don't care what you've seen. I have never ever seen a b16 head make more power than a GSR on the same motor...on a B16, GSR, LSVTEC or CRVTEC.

    2. In your first post, you said that he should use OEM VTEC internals in the block, instead of going forged. That makes your LSVTEC build completely pointless. Swapping in VTEC internals into an LS block means that you'll have the VTEC stroke, which is no different than the original VTEC motor...meaning you're not getting the added displacement and torque. If you want to rev an LS bottom end to 8k, all you need is ARP rod bolts. Higher than that, go aftermarket. I've even seen stock LS motors hold 8k and boost, but it's a hit or miss situation.

    3. VAFC's suck, whether its the first or second gen...it's not a tuning solution.



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    Quote Originally Posted by 92b18hatch
    so gsr would be the way to go with a head. what rods should i go with? oem rods from the b18b cant handle 8,000?
    Rods, rod bolts and head studs are weak points in both the B18B, B20B and B20Z as far as RPM limitations are concerned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dubcac
    A few points:
    Identical bottom ends, the B16 head was ported by portflow, had springs/retainers, ITR manifold, and a CTR intake cam/ITR exhaust cam. GSR head was stock, with ITR cams. The GSR head made 7whp and 4wtq over the B16 head, which utilized a higher flowing manifold, more aggressive intake cam, and a port job. If you want to maintain that the B16 head is better, that's fine...but you're wrong. I bet that guarantee isn't looking so hot on your part right now is it. I would trust one of the best engine builders and tuners on the entire west coast over some douches at SHO any day of the week. Do you even know why the ITR uses the PR4/B16 head? The GSR got the new technology honda developed, but they used the PR4 head on the ITR because they were overstocked of head castings at the factory, and they wanted to get rid of them. So take that for what you want. You can't dispute or debate numbers like that, I don't care what you've seen. I have never ever seen a b16 head make more power than a GSR on the same motor...on a B16, GSR, LSVTEC or CRVTEC.
    .
    Youre going to tell me that a stock GSR head made more power than a B16 with work done to it? Try another one.

    Quote Originally Posted by dubcac
    2. In your first post, you said that he should use OEM VTEC internals in the block, instead of going forged. That makes your LSVTEC build completely pointless. Swapping in VTEC internals into an LS block means that you'll have the VTEC stroke, which is no different than the original VTEC motor...meaning you're not getting the added displacement and torque. If you want to rev an LS bottom end to 8k, all you need is ARP rod bolts. Higher than that, go aftermarket. I've even seen stock LS motors hold 8k and boost, but it's a hit or miss situation.
    .
    Keeping the LS rods (preferable forged since these are weakpoints of the LS motor) and using VTEC pistons would keep the same stroke, while using pistons that were designed to handle the higher redline. Like you said, its hit or miss. VTEC pistons are more suitable for such applications if Forged internals are not in the budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by dubcac
    3. VAFC's suck, whether its the first or second gen...it's not a tuning solution.
    .
    I agree, no doubt. However (once again), budget is what drives my argument behind the VAFC. Its cheap, and it does a half decent job at tuning. If in the budget, a better option would be to convert to OBD1 and run Hondata. However in some states (in PA for example) you cannot convert a newer chassis to an older computer setup. My Integra came OBD2, and for it to pass inspection, it has to stay OBD2.

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    Senior Member 92b18hatch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AF
    Rods, rod bolts and head studs are weak points in both the B18B, B20B and B20Z as far as RPM limitations are concerned.
    arp blots are the way to go huh
    drive fast and take chances

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirfallsalot243
    Youre going to tell me that a stock GSR head made more power than a B16 with work done to it? Try another one.



    Keeping the LS rods (preferable forged since these are weakpoints of the LS motor) and using VTEC pistons would keep the same stroke, while using pistons that were designed to handle the higher redline. Like you said, its hit or miss. VTEC pistons are more suitable for such applications if Forged internals are not in the budget.



    I agree, no doubt. However (once again), budget is what drives my argument behind the VAFC. Its cheap, and it does a half decent job at tuning. If in the budget, a better option would be to convert to OBD1 and run Hondata. However in some states (in PA for example) you cannot convert a newer chassis to an older computer setup. My Integra came OBD2, and for it to pass inspection, it has to stay OBD2.
    Man, you're still stuck on this B16 head makes more power thing, holy christ. I'll post up dyno graphs when I get home tonight. I swear, you SHO fucktards make more work for me out of any other board.

    I wouldn't even call a VAFC a "half decent job at tuning." There is absolutely no spark control.
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    Dude, this is the first place ive EVER seen anyone say that the GSR makes more power. Both of the LSVTECs ive worked on (one B16 one GSR all stock) the B16 made more power.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirfallsalot243
    Youre going to tell me that a stock GSR head made more power than a B16 with work done to it? Try another one.
    Did you not see the link I posted? Raw facts from the dyno. Try another one.

    Keeping the LS rods (preferable forged since these are weakpoints of the LS motor) and using VTEC pistons would keep the same stroke, while using pistons that were designed to handle the higher redline. Like you said, its hit or miss. VTEC pistons are more suitable for such applications if Forged internals are not in the budget.
    Pistons have nothing to do with redline. Are you really this stupid?


    I agree, no doubt. However (once again), budget is what drives my argument behind the VAFC. Its cheap, and it does a half decent job at tuning. If in the budget, a better option would be to convert to OBD1 and run Hondata. However in some states (in PA for example) you cannot convert a newer chassis to an older computer setup. My Integra came OBD2, and for it to pass inspection, it has to stay OBD2.
    That's how it is in every state that has emissions testing. We have it much worse in CA than you do in PA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirfallsalot243
    Dude, this is the first place ive EVER seen anyone say that the GSR makes more power. Both of the LSVTECs ive worked on (one B16 one GSR all stock) the B16 made more power.
    I've never seen an LSVTEC with a B16 head make more power than a GSR head, with the same bottom end. I've never seen a GSR motor with a B16 head make more power than a stock GSR. I don't know where you get your info from in PA, but in CA we have quite a few reputable engine builders and tuners that have disproved your theory. Just in case you don't know how to click a link in a post body, here's the dyno graph:



    Blue = GSR head
    Red = B16 head

    here's the text from the article:

    "This is a VERY good comparison to look at...

    Question: What is the best head to put on my LS/VTEC, GS-R or B16A?

    Answer: In the opinion of Atomic and myself, I have to go with a GS-R head.

    Look at the graph...here is the 2 motors

    On 1 side we have the LS/VTEC B16A head...coming in at 180 HP
    The bottom end is EXACTLY the same as the GS-R LS/VTEC...exactly...
    so it makes for a good comparison.

    B16A has:
    port flow port/polish (mild)
    Civic Type-R intake cam
    ITR exhaust cam
    Comp valve springs/retainers
    Type-R intake manifold

    GS-R head has:
    Stock head
    Stock valvetrain
    Stock intake manifold
    ITR cams, intake and exhaust.
    and it made a little more power, as you can see by chart.
    With the GS-R head, you also will definitely get more torque.

    For the money though, B16A head is a good choice.
    Remember, this is not a perfect test, it just shows a pattern....

    Jeff"

    Now, Jeff is the owner/operator of ImportBuilders. He is regarded as one of the best engine builders on the west coast, and people from all over the country send their motors to him. So if you don't want to believe the raw data, or the opinion of someone like him, go right ahead and be dumb.
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  26. #26
    if you really want it broken down to what works the best for a b18 here is a awesome link. regardless of what type of build or how much power you want this will give you some very helpful information
    http://www.team-integra.net/sections...p?ArticleID=19

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    OK.. I'm not even gonna try to throw my testicles on this table wrt the b16 / b18 head question, but I can tell you this: I am mid ls/vtec build right now. From what I've read, you MUST have stronger bottom end to withstand revs of 8-9K. GSRs and ITRs have a 3 main girdle in the bottom end to help out, in addition to a better balanced crank, if I read correctly. LS crank is essential for your stroke, so it's KEY to replace your rod studs and put in a GSR / ITR girdle or get an aftermarket girdle. Bigger the better. I'm going to be block guarding mine, too.. just to be safe. I don't need my cylinders moving anywhere.

    Incidentally, I saw enough dyno results and discussions on this in MANY forums during my months of research for this build. I bought a PR4 head (GSR) from Clearwater Cylinder heads (recast is fine w/ a quick port) and it looks AWESOME! Got here today sporting better compression than the used b16a heads I saw on ebay and at all the jdm websites PLUS it's got a warranty. How the hell do you beat that?! I just won my vtec solenoid and will probably buy the z10 3-main girdle and new rod studs when I get my golden eagle vtec conversion kit (modacar rules!). You guys might think that kit is pussy, but I don't have time / money for all the machining garbage. Then, it's just a couple knick-nacks and a moates.net trip for the ecu (auto to manual) and I'm good to go.
    '90 Integra
    ACT Clutch, Place Racing CAI, Rota Circuit 8's,
    Full custom leather interior, Brembo rotors, Hawk pads,
    Momo steering wheel, DC Header, Greddy SP2,
    VERY custom body kit.
    Soon: ECU (zif socket, datalogger port, wideband o2), ls/vtec.

  28. #28
    driver ED9man's Avatar
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    Apr 2004
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    Isn't the GS-R head better because it has smaller combustion chambers?
    sig

  29. #29
    Junior Member primetime's Avatar
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    Mar 2005
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    The b16 head is better IF you plan on running a turbo because the head has better flow. BUT the b18c1 head is better if you plan on going all motor. gsr heads produce higher CP and are hondata compatible if you are using an obd1 computer. oh and you can rev to 8000rpm's with a b18a/b if you change the all of the bearings in the bottom end to gsr bearings!!! the bearing fit perfectly, no machining is required!!

  30. #30
    Senior Member mberndt's Avatar
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    Girdles are only needed on GSR and ITR motors, or on LS/VTEC motors (these need girdles because of the even longer rods in the B18A/B) because of the rod/stroke ratio. The rods are longer, hence more material, and they have a larger moment of inertia... This is why B16 blocks do not have them, nor do they need them.

    As for heads, GSR has less volume, hence will gove more compression. The B16 heads "flow better" because of the intake ports. On the GSR they are slightly different to accommodate the variable length intake manifold.

    Work on any head is only good for top-end power, who cares if u can get an extra 10 hp on top end (7600-8000) if you lose power lower in the RPM band.

    And as for the pistons limiting the redline, this is incorrect. Pistons simply transfer the power to the rods, the rods are what rotate, hence they have a larger moment of inertia, aka once moving they are harder to stop, remember physics class??

    As for tuning with a vafc, good luck... someone already said that it has no spark control, and I totoally agree. For the same price as a VAFC ($200+) you could get an eeprom programmer and use uberdata or the like.

    As for B18hatch, I would go with whatever is cheaper, however, the differences are slight, and if your going all motor a GSR will yield a higher C/R.
    In addition, GSR heads are said to have better cams, although this is also not reeally important unless you are really going to build the motor for all-motor use.

    But I would say one additional thing, the VTEC motors are ENGINEERED to rev-high and the non-vtec motors are not, so take care in revving them too high, or you might end up with a rod shooting out of your block .

  31. #30
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