Seemingly Unfixable Brake Issue..long one!
01-04-2006, 01:22 AM
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Seemingly Unfixable Brake Issue..long one!
1992 Honda Accord LX
Okay so I've had brake problems for a few years. My car just will not stop properly. The front brake pads begin to burn after a little bit of hard braking. The stopping power just isn't there, and I have to make up for it with mashing the peddle and/or e-braking slightly. I've had 3 different sets of calipers put on cause they lock up or explode. I've had 2 different sets of rotors. God knows how many sets of pads, including a set of hawk pros that just barely made my braking anything near respectable (and only for 10k miles). Every component of the system has been replaced front to back in the last year save for the brake booster. My mechanic has looked at it like 5 times and keeps telling me there's nothing wrong. Clearly there is. There are no fluid leaks in the system. Everything that's on there now has been installed by a licensed mechanic, yet it still continues to function at PERHAPS 60% of what the braking power should be.
Brakes are not hard. Conventional logic dictates this. Yet a fully licensed automotive mechanic cannot seem to fix it, much less myself.
Some theories:
The rear drum brakes could be not contributing for some reason. When I last did the rear brakes, I'm pretty sure there was a star adjustor, so it should be adjusting the shoes automatically. But if the rear drums were working properly, under hard braking wouldn't they be fully engaged? If that were the case then pulling my e-brake would add little effect to my stopping power. When I use it now, it contributes quite dramatically in stopping my car. This would also explain the overheating of my front brake pads, due to the fact that they are being given more load than they were designed to handle. When I had hawk pros on there, they almost never burned because they were kick ass pads, but they did burn under insane braking conditions.
Nissin vs Akebono calipers. I don't have a clue what the difference is, and I don't think my mechanic did either. Perhaps I have the wrong type?
Master cylinder cap is slightly loose. if you pull on the outside edge of it, it lifts up so that there is air exposed to the cylinder. Must the master cylinder be 100% completey totally absolutely airtight to function properly? I'd say when you lock the cap in its probably like 95% airtight, judging from the amount of play.
Malfunctioning brake booster. My mechanics told me time and time again that they ran vacuum tests on the brake booster and that it was still good. If i'm not mistaken, the brake boosters for this vehicle draw vacuum from the engine's intake manifold right? I have wondered if perhaps a vacuum leak in the intake manifold would subsequently cause a lack of vacuum in the brake booster.
Feel free to eliminate any of those theories or actually provide a solution to this problem. With my brakes in such deplorable condition, it is proving difficult to sell this car.
Okay so I've had brake problems for a few years. My car just will not stop properly. The front brake pads begin to burn after a little bit of hard braking. The stopping power just isn't there, and I have to make up for it with mashing the peddle and/or e-braking slightly. I've had 3 different sets of calipers put on cause they lock up or explode. I've had 2 different sets of rotors. God knows how many sets of pads, including a set of hawk pros that just barely made my braking anything near respectable (and only for 10k miles). Every component of the system has been replaced front to back in the last year save for the brake booster. My mechanic has looked at it like 5 times and keeps telling me there's nothing wrong. Clearly there is. There are no fluid leaks in the system. Everything that's on there now has been installed by a licensed mechanic, yet it still continues to function at PERHAPS 60% of what the braking power should be.
Brakes are not hard. Conventional logic dictates this. Yet a fully licensed automotive mechanic cannot seem to fix it, much less myself.
Some theories:
The rear drum brakes could be not contributing for some reason. When I last did the rear brakes, I'm pretty sure there was a star adjustor, so it should be adjusting the shoes automatically. But if the rear drums were working properly, under hard braking wouldn't they be fully engaged? If that were the case then pulling my e-brake would add little effect to my stopping power. When I use it now, it contributes quite dramatically in stopping my car. This would also explain the overheating of my front brake pads, due to the fact that they are being given more load than they were designed to handle. When I had hawk pros on there, they almost never burned because they were kick ass pads, but they did burn under insane braking conditions.
Nissin vs Akebono calipers. I don't have a clue what the difference is, and I don't think my mechanic did either. Perhaps I have the wrong type?
Master cylinder cap is slightly loose. if you pull on the outside edge of it, it lifts up so that there is air exposed to the cylinder. Must the master cylinder be 100% completey totally absolutely airtight to function properly? I'd say when you lock the cap in its probably like 95% airtight, judging from the amount of play.
Malfunctioning brake booster. My mechanics told me time and time again that they ran vacuum tests on the brake booster and that it was still good. If i'm not mistaken, the brake boosters for this vehicle draw vacuum from the engine's intake manifold right? I have wondered if perhaps a vacuum leak in the intake manifold would subsequently cause a lack of vacuum in the brake booster.
Feel free to eliminate any of those theories or actually provide a solution to this problem. With my brakes in such deplorable condition, it is proving difficult to sell this car.
01-04-2006, 04:33 AM
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I am no Tech, but I know Braking Systems have to be 100% Air tight. IF you have any air at all in the system you get a "squishy" brake feel. You have to push the peddle further down, but the E-brake will still work fine. The E-brake manually engages your rear brakes. Have you changed or checked rear pads/shoes?
I replaced my front and rear pads, and had the slightest air bubble in the system and I had a similar feeling to the one that you are having now.
I replaced my front and rear pads, and had the slightest air bubble in the system and I had a similar feeling to the one that you are having now.
01-04-2006, 07:15 AM
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Keep the master cylinder cap tight. If you leave it open it is ok. The problem is that there is moisture in the air and brake fluid loves to absorb moisture. And if your brake fluid absorbs a lot of moisture it will lower the boiling point of the brake fluid. And when the fluid boils is when the air bubble forms. So keep the cap tight.
Second what kind of brakes pads are you using now?
Second what kind of brakes pads are you using now?
01-04-2006, 09:55 AM
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bboy Wesley West
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lol, it is so easy to determine if your calipers are akebono or not...just look on the caliper, it says nissin if it is nissin and if it doesnt then it is akebono
im thinking it is the master cylinder.
i have a faulty brake booster and the pedal never goes to the ground but it just seems like i cannot get enuf leverage to stop the car (meaning i cant lock them up either)
hmm, as for testing the brake booster, you have to follow the procesdure in the manul. it tells you to hold the brake and turn off the car, if it sinks then it is loosing vacuum.
do the same for when you start the car...
im thinking it is the master cylinder.
i have a faulty brake booster and the pedal never goes to the ground but it just seems like i cannot get enuf leverage to stop the car (meaning i cant lock them up either)
hmm, as for testing the brake booster, you have to follow the procesdure in the manul. it tells you to hold the brake and turn off the car, if it sinks then it is loosing vacuum.
do the same for when you start the car...
Last edited by wedley2; 01-04-2006 at 09:58 AM.
01-04-2006, 11:32 AM
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Alright tried Wedley's brake booster test, no sink in the pedal after I turn the car off.
Wedley when you said this,
did you mean to say master cylinder again in that second sentence? That is exactly my problem, the pedal is firm, and for the most part feels right, but it simply lacks the power to stop. But why would this cause my brake pads to burn if not enough stopping force is being applied?
Oh and I'm running cheap-ass wear-ever pads from advance auto parts cause I got tired of wasting money on 65 dollar hawk pros. They're awesome pads hell ya, but it doesn't matter what pad i run, they all get fried in short order anyways.
Wedley when you said this,
im thinking it is the master cylinder.
i have a faulty brake booster and the pedal never goes to the ground but it just seems like i cannot get enuf leverage to stop the car
i have a faulty brake booster and the pedal never goes to the ground but it just seems like i cannot get enuf leverage to stop the car
Oh and I'm running cheap-ass wear-ever pads from advance auto parts cause I got tired of wasting money on 65 dollar hawk pros. They're awesome pads hell ya, but it doesn't matter what pad i run, they all get fried in short order anyways.
01-04-2006, 04:02 PM
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are front rotors glazed? it sounds like you like to brake really hard. the star adjuster on drums only adjust when you are in reverse and apping brakes. before you start your car....pump the pedal maybe aruond four or fives times....gets real hard huh? then start the car. you shoudl feel the pedal move downward towards the floor. if it is real stiff still.... the booster is to blame.
01-04-2006, 08:57 PM
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all else fails try OEM pads if the rotors are glazed replace them also are you getting good quality replacement parts since you say the pedal feels normal just doesn't stop I wonder if the portportion valve might be bad and putting all of your stopping power in the front since theres so much pressure the calipers are exploding.
01-04-2006, 09:13 PM
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bboy Wesley West
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Originally Posted by ND120883
Alright tried Wedley's brake booster test, no sink in the pedal after I turn the car off.
Wedley when you said this, did you mean to say master cylinder again in that second sentence? That is exactly my problem, the pedal is firm, and for the most part feels right, but it simply lacks the power to stop. But why would this cause my brake pads to burn if not enough stopping force is being applied?
Oh and I'm running cheap-ass wear-ever pads from advance auto parts cause I got tired of wasting money on 65 dollar hawk pros. They're awesome pads hell ya, but it doesn't matter what pad i run, they all get fried in short order anyways.
Wedley when you said this, did you mean to say master cylinder again in that second sentence? That is exactly my problem, the pedal is firm, and for the most part feels right, but it simply lacks the power to stop. But why would this cause my brake pads to burn if not enough stopping force is being applied?
Oh and I'm running cheap-ass wear-ever pads from advance auto parts cause I got tired of wasting money on 65 dollar hawk pros. They're awesome pads hell ya, but it doesn't matter what pad i run, they all get fried in short order anyways.
so if you tried the brake booster test, then that is ruled out which goes to master cylinder and shit.
01-04-2006, 11:11 PM
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ummm...it burns as in it gets so hot that smoke comes out from under the wheels. Yeah, I know. Yes I do brake more often than normal, I'm a pizza driver. Hard braking alone doesn't explain these probs though. My car should at least stop normally for a small period of time before my hard driving begins to "overload" my "perfectly functional" brakes. That's not the case, my car's braking sucks instantly from the second I get in the car, everyday.
I don't think its glazed rotors or anything, because the rotors were just recently replaced along with the pads, and after i went SUPER SUPER easy for the next 100 miles, the braking problems persisted.
Did the 2nd brake booster test waabaah suggested, and the pedal did sink after turning on the car. Brake booster seems to be okay.
What is this proportioning valve? I've never heard of this part.
I don't think its glazed rotors or anything, because the rotors were just recently replaced along with the pads, and after i went SUPER SUPER easy for the next 100 miles, the braking problems persisted.
Did the 2nd brake booster test waabaah suggested, and the pedal did sink after turning on the car. Brake booster seems to be okay.
What is this proportioning valve? I've never heard of this part.
01-04-2006, 11:11 PM
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ummm...it burns as in it gets so hot that smoke comes out from under the wheels. Yeah, I know. Yes I do brake more often than normal, I'm a pizza driver. Hard braking alone doesn't explain these probs though. My car should at least stop normally for a small period of time before my hard driving begins to "overload" my "perfectly functional" brakes. That's not the case, my car's braking sucks instantly from the second I get in the car, everyday.
I don't think its glazed rotors or anything, because the rotors were just recently replaced along with the pads, and after i went SUPER SUPER easy for the next 100 miles, the braking problems persisted.
Did the 2nd brake booster test waabaah suggested, and the pedal did sink after turning on the car. Brake booster seems to be okay.
What is this proportioning valve? I've never heard of this part.
I don't think its glazed rotors or anything, because the rotors were just recently replaced along with the pads, and after i went SUPER SUPER easy for the next 100 miles, the braking problems persisted.
Did the 2nd brake booster test waabaah suggested, and the pedal did sink after turning on the car. Brake booster seems to be okay.
What is this proportioning valve? I've never heard of this part.