H22 rebuild troubles - PICS inside
 

Look what happened to my friend with his 4G Prelude VTEC, 1994, all happened in Europe.

His oil consumption was about 1L/1000km (1quart/600miles) so he wanted to make a rebuild at his friend's shop. OK, he bought all the parts as rings and valve seals, all from Honda for big money and bringed all the stuff to the mechanic. The man did the rebuilt, but when my frined first started, the lude really smoked with white color. The mechanic said it is ok, you have to drive with it and it will be ok. What happened next - the oil consumption was unbelievable 1L per 20-50km (1q/15-35miles)! All this followed with huge white smoke. My friend said OK, I will believe you and I'll try it. He has driven about 3000km (2000miles), the white smoke was still there and the oil consumption has "improved" to 1L/50km.

That was really unbelievable. The mechanic said that he has done everything perfectly and that "it is ok". My friend couldn't get the money or anything back. The ride with his lude was not fun anymore. My friend was really heart-broken and didn't know what to do. He couldn't simply sell the lude with smoking like this. Everyone told him that there must be something wrong and that it is not ok. My friend hoped that he didn't buy bad rings, but was not sure.

So one day, he estimated that we will try to open the engine and check what is wrong. We hoped that the rings were badly put on or put in reverse, because the oil consumption was really big. We opened the engine (head off) and WTF, all seemed to be ok. The rings were put perfectly. This was really bad news for us - we all hoped it will be the rings. The plugs were all covered by oil:

http://www.volny.cz/veitel/prelude/rebuild/pic10.jpg


Anyway, we tried to remove the rings form the pistons and when looked in detail, the ring that seats between the two oil rings was cut!!! We had some old rings to compare, look at these pics:

http://www.volny.cz/veitel/prelude/rebuild/pic05.jpg
http://www.volny.cz/veitel/prelude/rebuild/pic06.jpg

What the f*ck could that mechanic be? These rings were cut on all the pistons. I remember when we were rebuilding our last H22, the rings went to the cylinder really bad and we also thought that we bought some bad "too big" rings. While we got them in, the mechanic didn't and simply cut them! It's sure that the high oil burning was because of this.

However this was not the last surprise that day. When we looked into the cylinder, there was some deep scratch in, the same was on the piston and bearing:

http://www.volny.cz/veitel/prelude/rebuild/pic01.jpg
http://www.volny.cz/veitel/prelude/rebuild/pic03.jpg
http://www.volny.cz/veitel/prelude/rebuild/pic04.jpg

Was that mechanic mad? It looked like he made the rebuild in some sand or stone pit. So we bought one new piston and all new bearings. We had only to rehone the cylinder, because there was not enough money to do anything else (my friend had to pay two rebuilds).

http://www.volny.cz/veitel/prelude/rebuild/pic07.jpg
http://www.volny.cz/veitel/prelude/rebuild/pic08.jpg

Yes, the scratch is still there, but not so deep and sharp.

http://www.volny.cz/veitel/prelude/rebuild/pic09.jpg

We are going to finish this rebuild tommorow. I will report our result to you.

oh man, that totally sux. isnt there some way you can get a refund???

goddamn
id burn that ****ers shop to the ground
im serious :mad:

you should have bought a rebuilt engine from me :)

~boom

Sure you can, you should sue him... thats totalled ****ed up. Thank god i dont live in Europe i will avoid his shop if i ever live in Europe tho... :madfawk: thats a little something from me to the mechanic at that shop...

I would definatly try to hold him responsible in some way. That's just not right.

uh, it looks like you used the wrong hone for the job, considering the deep horizontal scoring now on the cylinder walls in your "after" pic. it also looks like you honed at nearly a 30 degree crosshatch.

GC-600-J or finer honing stone for non-ferrous metals is supposed to be used with a 60 degree crosshatch at 45-50 rpm. FRM is much softer than iron sleeving, and use of a standard stone setup will destroy the cylinder walls. the honing device is available from Snap-On.

hopefully the photos just arent doing your work any justice, and that the blur of the hone in motion LOOKS faster than 45-50rpm.

Yes, I know the hone is very amateur. There is no way how to have done it professionally here in east Europe. Maybe for some domestic cars, but 100% not any Honda. Honda is not well known here, even the mechanics directly in Honda look like stupids. You have seen on these pictures "a professional" who makes engines everyday. Maybe he is good for some domestic sh*ts, but not for Honda.

My friend also didn't have any more money to do anything else.

Don't mean to bust any bubbles, and though I don't know to much about honda's. But every car I have ever worked on, the piston rings have to have an opening to put them on and take them off, and to fit them to that piston. And they don't cause a problem. The only thing that would cause a problem is if those openings are lined up, they all have to be set so that they are seperated from each other, otherwise oil can get through when it's not supposed to. You might want to hit the books before causing making a big seen, because if I'm right it can make you look bad.

GOD DAMN...WELL SAID


Geez I love this girl, Who ever got her is lucky:thumbup:

with the pics of the oil rings being severed, it's pretty obvious where the problem lies... a severed oil ring will not provide the ability to scavenge oil from the cylinder walls.

only the piston rings are split to fit... the oil rings are sprung like an expandable bracelet.

you should have checked compression while it was blowing white smoke, to find out which cylinder (if not all 4) is loosing the most compression

right and wrong

ring gap is a spec located in the helms manual, there should be some gap. You can simulate the new ring gap by using the upside down piston head to push the ring into the cylinder, remove the piston and then use a feeler gauge to measure the gap.
correct install position of the rings (gap) is also outlined in the helms
i would not attempt to rebuild that engine without a helms shop manual (mine is 94 h22a1 manual, 1490 pages, $92)
i will look up the ring install specs and post them once i get home from work


why are you building an h23a1 for your accord?
why not use an h22a/1
its 3 extra wires

~boom

why are you building an h23a1 for your accord?
why not use an h22a/1
its 3 extra wires

~boom [/B][/QUOTE]


Well that was my first pick (h22), but I happened to find a Lude with a H23...SO i went with that...and Besides H23 is better for Boost. Also the H23 only has 10g on it:naughty: , very strong

i dont consider any h23a1 strong compared to any h22a1

the h22a is much better balanced, and where did you find a h23a1 with 10g? (i assume u mean 10,000 miles)
considering honda made the last ones in 1996

also, stephan papadakis uses a turbo h22a on his 2001 civic, and he runs 8's at 180+ MPH

so i dont see how a h23a1 is better for boost, you just have get the VTEC disabled for the turbo

~boom

hes prolly saying its better for boost because it doesnt have vtec, which again is incorrect.

yes and no... it's a 2.5 litre. they took an H22A, bored it to 90mm, then used the H23's crank to stroke it (a billet version thereof). the block had a deck plate installed to accomodate a longer rod to help square up the rod/stroke ratio and improve high rpm performance and reduce side forces within the rotational assembly.

the ideal rod/stroke ratio is 1.75:1 the H23 is about 1.59:1 and the H22 is 1.64:1 or something like that. i had everything written in a build log somewhere, but have had no success with finding them since i moved. :(

actually i believe the h22 is 1.58, not positive though...and also I dont believe its possible to have an H23 that is better than an H22, just think of the advantages of having 2 different sets of cams? i mean its ideal....they dont really make a whole of cams in the form of turbo cams for the h22, but if you really know what you're doing a made a custom turbo cam for the h22, it would be unreal

i hope you followed honda spec on that hone, cause if you didnt you will probably end up needing sleeves in the long run....as in iron sleeves since the appearance of teh FRM sleeves right now is that they are ruined.

H23 = 1.49:1 rod/stroke ratio
H22 = 1.59:1

sorry about that... just found my notes.

also, the AEM civic features a roller rocker conversion, which eliminates the VTEC function. this is due to less valvetrain friction and the fact that VTEC is useless in the realm of drag racing.

VTEC is great for fuel economy, when a loping idle and low rpm efficiency is important... but fuel economy is not of a concern on the race track.

thank god someone agrees with me! the other day i was argueing with some kid with a v-tec civic that if you want flat out performance, v-tec is just a fuel saver, but if you need a daily ride thats when its a performance upgrade. I think JUN also makes a similiar kit.

VTEC is a system to improve engine breathing at higher rpms.
it is also a system that allows for a very flat torque curve.

the system was designed for NA use only and IS useable in drag racing.
DOHC VTEC has nothing to do with gas mileage.

explain why the h23a1 (non-VTEC) makes 160HP at about 6000 rpm, CR=9.8/1
and the h22a1 (VTEC) makes 190 HP at 6800 rpm, CR=10/1

both are DOHC

how did they gain 30 hp in only 800 extra rpm and .2 CR...
while losing a liter at the same time.

did the 30 HP come from better gas mileage? :fawk:

~boom

as I hear it, VTEC was originally designed for fuel economy.... one of the byproducts of it was more power also. More efficent engine = less gas and more power.

Kinda like how Teflon was discovered... by accident. They were trying to accomplish something else and ended up with more than they thought they would. A good thing.

So yes, VTEC does add more power... but it's original idea and design was just to make the engine more fuel efficent at higher RPMs.

But that's just what I heard... :p I have no proof. :oh:

Why is boost in VTEC bad? Or not as good as when not in VTEC?

VTEC is bad for boost because the extra valve lift affects the intake charge pressure or something, some1 explained it in detail a while back.
~boom

You mean "losing .1 litres." If it was 1 whole litre, we'd be talking about the H12 ;)

Bad for boost with factory cams, with custom cams you're talking a whole new world.

look at the lobe specs, grasshopper.

the H23's lobes have less duration and lift than the H22's VTEC lobes... therefore the H22 is capable of breathing at higher rpm's. if it can breathe efficiently at higher rpm, then more power can be achieved purely by increased rpm while maintaining torque. hp = tq x rpm / 5252

the H23 has smaller lobes to give the H23 better low end response, less engine vibration due to no idle lope, and better fuel economy

again, VTEC is for fuel economy and low end engine response... not for high end power. if these werent valid reasons, then VTEC wouldnt have even been created as the need for a smaller lobe at low rpm wouldn't be there.

if more lift is bad, then drag racers would be screwed.

VTEC systems lose a bit of oil thru the head due to insufficient sealing of the valve seals. this problem happens when VTEC engages... VTEC motors burn more oil than comparable motors.

more lift is always a good thing if you have a valvetrain that can take the abuse.

the problem is duration. VTEC increases lift AND duration... and extended duration means extended overlap. more overlap causes "boost-thru", as the boost charge is pushed into the head and blown right out the exhaust valves. proper cam timing or properly designed cams can resolve this issue, and in many cases, recovers up to 30hp in well tuned motors.

if lift were the problem, then ANY high lift cam would be bad for a boosted motor, which is not the case.

no. more efficient at LOW rpms.

has anyone here ever heard a 350 with a lumpy cam in it before? it spits raw fuel out the pipe and idles like it's running a horseshoe shaped crank.

at cruising, the small lobes on a VTEC cam provide for better fuel economy... no need for a big, thick lobe to feed lots of air and fuel into the cylinder when you're cruising or putting around town under 50mph.

but with that smallish lobe, your fuel economy is great, birds are singing, the sun beans down and smiles upon the earth... until you want to get on the highway.

so, instead of increasing displacement (being fuel inefficent), why not make the motor rev higher? well, you need a cam that can breathe at high rpm... and that small cam wont cut it. so why not have a switching system? you get your low-rpm efficiency, while you get more power for the times you need it. plus, you dont have to put up with feeling like driving a GM product with a 350 and a lumpy cam.

by knowing the formula for horsepower, it's easy to see why Honda went this route, with fuel economy in mind, but having a bit more power on tap when needed.