98CoupeV6

The Saab 9-3 is FWD, as is the A4 1.8T. The 325i will get you RWD and a smooth inline six for at least 32 grand if you wanna match the features/amenities of the TSX.

I can see from your post that you've never driven a CL-S or RSX-S. The CL-S was compared directly against the 330Ci, and Car and Driver said the handling difference was negligable, if there was any. There is absolutely no need for RWD on a car unless you're pushing 250+ horsepower and have to worry about torque steer and putting the power down correctly, as FWD can be tuned to handle just as good or better than RWD up to 9/10 driving. How do you think it is that ITRs have been kicking the asses of the 325i's on the SPEED Touring Car series, or whatever they call it now? 2 reasons: A B18C5 DOHC VTEC and a light FWD chassis.

I don't understand your point with the VTEC, nor do I think you have one. Since when have they relied too heavily on it? They don't rely on it at all. You don't see 'VTEC POWER' plastered on every Honda. Other companies may have variable valve timing (and even infinite variable valve timing), but none have matched Honda in reliability, durability power, and performance. The M3 has 111 hp/l, yet it has tons of reliability problems. The Celica GT-S has a ridiculously narrow torque band. The S2000's F20C 2.0L 240HP engine with absolutely ZERO reliability problems (relating to its engine) speaks volumes, as does the K24 engine that feels like a V6 and has the torque curve of a V6, yet gets 30MPG. To say that the TSX doesn't have performance is ridiculous...it has more power than any of its competitors and you can not make any claims on how well it does or doesn't handle.

Looks are subjective, as always. I find the TSX more attractive and unique than anything in its class. The TSX is a car for people who want a sporty driving experience, a slick manual tranny, lots of features, and decent looks. All at a value price. None of its competitors deliver that, save for the A4.

jaje

actually honda's trick vtec system is not copied to the fullest extent by most other mfgrs

http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovati...9/article.html

Toyota saw the success Honda was having with VTEC (from both a functional and marketing standpoint) but decided to go a different route. Instead of the on/off system that VTEC employs, Toyota decided it wanted a continuously variable system that would maximize valve timing throughout the rpm range. Dubbed VVTi for Variable Valve Timing with intelligence (Is this a dig at Honda, suggesting their system isn't intelligent?), Toyota uses a hydraulic rather than mechanical system to alter the intake cam's phasing. The main difference from VTEC is that VVTi maintains the same cam profile and alters only when the valves open and close in relation to engine speed. Also, this system works only on the intake valve while VTEC has two settings for the intake and the exhaust valves, which makes for a more dramatic gain in peak power than VVTi can claim.

Several other manufacturers, including Ford, Lamborghini and Porsche have jumped on the cam phasing bandwagon because it is a relatively cheap method of increasing horsepower, torque and efficiency. BMW has also used a cam phasing system, called VANOS (Variable Onckenwellen Steuerung) for several years. Like the other manufacturers, this system only affected the intake cams. But, as of 1999, BMW is offering its Double VANOS system on the new 3 Series. As you might have guessed, Double VANOS manipulates both the intake and exhaust camshafts to provide efficient operation at all rpms. This helps the new 328i, equipped with a 2.8-liter inline six, develop 193 peak horsepower and 206 pound-feet of torque. More impressive than the peak numbers, however, is the broad range of useable power that goes along with this system. Take it from someone who's driven the new 3 Series and who loves torquey engines-it works!

Nelson

Nice! It's the euro Accord, right?

98CoupeV6

Yep, it's the rebadged (interior was also redesigned) European/Japanese Accord 24S.

RB

you pay for what you get.

Before the mid 90's, Acura has not made its name in the luxury division. In my opinion, its contention in the luxury market came about with the introduction on the TL series. Every other competitor you mention made its name in the luxury division. The fact for the cheaper TSX is mearly because it hasn't been a contender. It's trying to become a contender, so in order to do this, a cheaper price is necessary. No one is going to buy this car if it were priced even close to the 3-series BMW. It's got to be much less expensive to lure people away from the reputation, style, power, and class of BMW to buy an Acura.

Honestly, the reliability issue is not an issue at all. Honda has had its valve timing system for over 13 years, and no doubt was in development for a few years before that. Despite having the award for being first, that doesn't make it better or any more special. The lack of reliability is a result of not having the 13 years of it...besides, any reliability issues are covered by warranties on any other car...nor are they rampant, so don't act like they AREN'T reliable. As far as Honda relying on VTEC, you are sadly mistaken. They plaster VTEC on every car equipt, and to my knowledge, advertised its superiority with numerous commercials and advertisements.

And what are you talking about "speed touring series." An inline six RWD luxury coupe/sedan does not even compare to an ITR...they are in two COMPLETELY different classes. The ITR is a sport compact car. I don't even feel like going into this issue because I find it absolutely rediculous that you compare these two different cars. I know what you are getting at though....the issue of rwd vs fwd. If you are going to equip a car with 200 hp in an inline 4...what would you rather it be controlled with? the front or back wheels? Exactly. No one in there right mind would say the front wheels. End of story.

As far as looks are concerned, I guarentee the TSX would fail to compare to either the A4 or the 3-series. I think the closest competitor (looks wise) is the Saab. Personally I think you are brainwashed because this thing looks like a cross between a Camry and an Accord...and for almost 30k, people would rather choose something a little bit more stylish.

I don't blame you for being a loyal Acura/Honda owner, I mean I own an Acura myself, but dont kid yourself into thinking something is automatically better because its an Acura. Granted, there are good things about the tsx, but just because its your favorite type of auto maker doesn't make it the best.

...and for your viewing pleasure, a little looks comparison to show you what I'm talking about:




and compare the tail lights:

98CoupeV6

The TL is going to compete with the 3 series, not the TSX. The TSX was never intended to compete with the 3 series. You do pay for what you get, and the 3 series is a superior car. No doubt about it. But is it 10 grand superior? This goes back to the Boxster S vs S2000 argument...sure, the Boxster S is a better car in almost every respect, but is it $20,000 better? That's a subjective decision with alot of variables dependant upon it.



I'll give you that. But it really makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. I don't blame them for capitalizing on VTEC. However, all the other makes do plaster it on the engine as Honda does.



I am getting at FWD vs RWD. The ITRs have been kicking ass on the SPEED Touring Series (do a search if you seriously don't know what that is) for the past half decade, especially against the 325i. I would rather have FWD or AWD rather than RWD in a 200HP I4 car. Now if it's a 300HP V8, give me RWD any day. But I live where it snows alot, and RWD is not plausible. I was driving through a half foot of snow yesterday, I never coulda done that with RWD. With a relatively lightweight car such as the TSX, FWD is alright, as long as the chassis is very good, which it is. RWD would be ideal on that car if you're going to race it, however, which noone is going to.

Blah blah blah blah - who give a damn, it's all subjective. I almost resent your thinking that I'm biased, as I'm hoping the G35C is going to be my next car. I'm just defending the car I wrote the review on.

You still haven't proven to me your main point: How does this car not compete/compare with the Jaguar X-Type, Audi A4 1.8T, Saab 9-3, and other $25,000 - $30,000 cars? Don't say panache or any subjective factors, please. Not all people are that superficial. So please, give me a logical argument that I can't refute.

Chris

jaje

race a 200 hp crx with any production 200hp rwd car...now tell me fwd can't do anything (these cars can hang with spec miatas a neat little racing series if you aren't familiar)...in fact as 98coupev6 says...the 2,500 lb itrs are very competitive b/c they handle like a rwd car if you've ever driven or ridden in one...add to the fact that the drivetrain loses 5-10% less power than a rwd setup and that means more power to the road

i've been racing for years and have driven and ridden in wide assortment of cars...those that scoff at properly tuned lightweight fwd cars as not being able to compete with rwd are seriously and unfortunately mistaken...please, notice i said lightweight b/c the heavier the car the bigger the engine needs to be and that creates more low end torque making torque steer and that's what makes a high power big engine fwd car more difficult to drive...a reason why the 9-3 Viggen was a monster in itself

as for drag racing...fwd is the worst platform to consider due to physics...but i've helped a friend build a h22a 94 civic sedan and he runs low 13s on slicks w/o any form of forced induction

RB

Quote from initial story: "With such backing the TSX should be competitive with most of its competition, including the BMW 325i, Saab 9-3, Audi A4 1.8T, and Nissan Maxima". Don't say that The TL is the main competition for the 3 series, because its not. The TL is the poor man's 5 series...In my opinion. I guarentee that Acura is attacking such competitors such as BMW, Nissan, Saab, and Audi. To be considered in this class, Acura has to dance with the big boys, so to speak. Also, look at your first response in this thread...I think you are contradicting yourself.

I'm not talking about the engine, but honestly you are right. Almost all manufacturers are putting thier engine advancements somewhere on thier car. I'll give you that.

An all around automobile isn't purely for speed, and both the ITR and the 3-series prove this. Honestly, you never got to MY point: the ITR and the 3 series aren't even in the same automotive class. A fairer assessment would be the ITR vs the M3...both are the top of the class in thier respective model. But again, The ITR may be winning these speed touring challanges, but the 3 series was made for something completely different all together than the ITR. Seriously, your arguement is very flawed for comparing these two types of cars.

Again, as far as the RWD vs FWD arguement. Don't bring in the snow arguement. If you are going to drive in the snow, or are in an evironment where it snows, you should be driving an suv. if you want to start comparing the X5 vs the MDX, go right ahead. Neither automobile was specifically designed for off road or snow climates. And as far as saying that no one is going to race it even though its a RWD automobile, how do you explain the ITR? People aren't going to buy an ITR and drive the speed limit...


Again, I was never saying that the TSX doesn't compare, I was simply saying that it wont match up...read my first sentence in my first post...when comparing these two automobiles, money is honestly. I honestly believe that they are in similar classes, perhaps not the same, but I think the lines are shading between classes as of late. As far as saying I'm superficial...what is the first thing you notice about a car? It's looks. It's hard not to be subjective about a car when discussing its aesthetic appearance. I respect that you find the car eye pleasing, but I disagree with you on that respect, as I am sure many others do. If two cars are in the same class (lets take our original example of the 3 series vs the tsx), simply looking at stats, performance, appearance, etc, disregarding money (because they ARE in the same class, so if you want to spend less money, look into a less expensive class), the 3 series is in every way superior.

98CoupeV6

I don't see how I contradicted myself. That's nice if you think the TL is a poor man's 5 series, but its price range falls right into the range of the BMW 3 series. Price dictates competition, not interior measurements or horsepower. Look at every entry level luxury sedan comparison test done in the past 1-2 years...it consists of the Acura TL-S, BMW 330i, Infiniti G35, and a couple others. I dunno if you've ever been in a 5 series or a TL, but they are pretty uncomparable. The 5 series is at the pinnacle of automotive engineering, the TL-S is a boat of compromises.



I'm trying to tell you that FWD isn't insuperior. This has nothing to do with what car I picked. Tuned well, FWD can provide the handling and grip of RWD up to 9.5/10 driving. That's for relatively light cars with horsepower ratings below 240, when it gets above that horsepower and above 3400 or 3500 lbs, RWD is a must for good handling.[/quote][/b]



I laughed my ass off at the suggestion that I should be driving an SUV. Thanks for the humor. I just drove through 5 inches of snow this Saturday for about an hour. I was in snow that was falling at a rate of 3-4 inches/hour in my FWD Accord, I will never buy an SUV. Not because Jesus wouldn't drive it, because they handle like shit until you buy a Cayenne. And my dick is big enough to be able to live with sitting below everyone. And I meant race is in ON A RACETRACK. The TSX (Accord) is too heavy and big to road race like the ITR.

Yes, you are absolutely right, the 3 series is superior in every single way. $15,000 tends to buy you alot more car. Just like how the Boxster S is superior to the S2000...but last time I checked, my bank account balance only has 3 digits. I'll buy what the best car is for the money. I'd say the 325i is close to the TSX, but again, optioned to the TSX's level it comes out to above $32,000 and you get slower acceleration.

Chris

albee

hmmm....
This is the new "Accord" I was hoping to see. Although the looks of the 7th Gen Accord is starting to grow on me, I'm still disappointed with what Honda served up. Assuming the price is right, the TSX might be my next new car.