Transmission Axle Seal Leak Dilemma
10-20-2009, 04:40 PM
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Transmission Axle Seal Leak Dilemma
During routine tire rotation on 1988 Integra, mechanic pointed out that the left transmission seal was leaking. On this model, the manual transmission does not have a dipstick to check level so apparently there is a bolt somewhere (i never have been able to find it;think it has to be on a lift to access) that can be removed to confirm that transmission fluid is topped off.
Since leak was not excessive, mechanic first recommended that I bring it in every month or so to check level. This seemed impractical and possibly risky to me so they offered to replace both seals for $165.
Hoping to get some insights into this problem.
1. Is it normal for transmission axle seals to have a small leak? Just had Honda dealer replace trans fluid last month and they didn't flag the problem.
2. Assuming I put a pan underneath the car to determine amount of leak and it is 0 to 1 drops per night, would it be OK to wait until its time to replace the cv axles (boots) and replace seals at this time. Seems like I've had to replace the cv axles or cv boot in the past and that this is a recurring repair on this model.
3. Is there a risk that this seal will blow out completely causing irreputable damage to the transmission?
My inclination is to fix something like this. Transmissions are expensive and I can't monitor the fluid level myself. On the other hand, if they typically have small leaks I don't want to replace it now and then find out 6 months later that the cv axle (or boot) needs replacing and I end up paying twice for the same labor.
What do you think?
Since leak was not excessive, mechanic first recommended that I bring it in every month or so to check level. This seemed impractical and possibly risky to me so they offered to replace both seals for $165.
Hoping to get some insights into this problem.
1. Is it normal for transmission axle seals to have a small leak? Just had Honda dealer replace trans fluid last month and they didn't flag the problem.
2. Assuming I put a pan underneath the car to determine amount of leak and it is 0 to 1 drops per night, would it be OK to wait until its time to replace the cv axles (boots) and replace seals at this time. Seems like I've had to replace the cv axles or cv boot in the past and that this is a recurring repair on this model.
3. Is there a risk that this seal will blow out completely causing irreputable damage to the transmission?
My inclination is to fix something like this. Transmissions are expensive and I can't monitor the fluid level myself. On the other hand, if they typically have small leaks I don't want to replace it now and then find out 6 months later that the cv axle (or boot) needs replacing and I end up paying twice for the same labor.
What do you think?
10-20-2009, 04:54 PM
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Could be the mechanic overfilled it. They tranny fluid is not pressurized so it's not going to "blow out." All seals fail eventually, it will drip like cars leaking engine oil.
10-20-2009, 05:28 PM
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1. no its not normal for it to leak, even if its a small amount.
2. sounds reasonable. if there are other issues that can be fixed at the same time, its always better to knock out multiple birds with one stone
3. like lynx said, there is no pressure in the system, but the seal(s) can still fall out or deteriorate completely leaving ur transmission dry. i would think though, that if it did run dry, you'd notice it right away before any major damage was done. namely loud whining, and super difficult shifting motion. then again, i've never driven a dry transmission so I wouldnt know first hand.
2. sounds reasonable. if there are other issues that can be fixed at the same time, its always better to knock out multiple birds with one stone
3. like lynx said, there is no pressure in the system, but the seal(s) can still fall out or deteriorate completely leaving ur transmission dry. i would think though, that if it did run dry, you'd notice it right away before any major damage was done. namely loud whining, and super difficult shifting motion. then again, i've never driven a dry transmission so I wouldnt know first hand.
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10-20-2009, 07:13 PM
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Even when it's a little low, you would notice. Shifting gets fairly difficult. I have found this out before.
10-22-2009, 08:19 PM
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Update and Conundrum
Great insight from both Lynx and Spec R! Thanks.
Wanted to share some of the things I've discovered. Took the car back to Honda dealer today to get a second opinion. Was concerned that they didn't flag the problem when they changed the trans fluid 3 months ago (thought it was last month but its been 3 months, 700 miles). They, of course, said that the seal should be replaced and they'd be glad to do it for $250 (one seal only). They implied that there may be another leak as the fluid was found in another spot on the transmission (although they said it is possible that it got there from the seal).
I had them point out where the filler bolt is so I can check it myself (it is a 17mm bolt on passenger side of trany; difficult to access without car lift as it requires that one be underneath the car). I also had them check to see if the fluid level was low. It was not as fluid flowed out when the bolt was removed.
Honda advisor said my idea of waiting until cv axle (boot) needed replacement was flawed because the left cv axle has a separate extension axle that attaches to the seal. Therefore, the repairs would be unrelated.
Lynx, your idea about the overflow was a good one but I suspect that that is not the source. Assuming that the port for pouring the fluid in is the same one that one checks the level (17mm passenger side bolt mentioned above) then it is on the opposite side of the supposedly leaky seal. I think you are right about the shifting getting difficult as I have seem to remember a similar experience. Importantly, the Honda advisor said that the 5th gear is separate from the other gears on this model and that if the fluid level gets low that that gear would go. If this is right, I suppose it is possible that the fluid level could get low and one would lose the 5th gear before any sign of shifting difficulty (intercity driving). He said a subsequent design improvement eliminated this 5th gear vulnerability.
I put a pan beneath the seal to determine the amount of overnight leakage. So far, narry a drop. Honda service rep suggested that leakage occurs when vehicle is moving and fluid is hot.
My feeling is that I'll try to access the 17mm check bolt myself and monitor it closely for a few months. But I've got to admit, I'm concerned about Spec R's comment that the seal could fall out. If I knew it were the original seal I'd go ahead and replace them both but I had a new transmission installed about 10 years ago and I don't know if they put in new seals. Independent shop's $165 estimate for replacement of BOTH seals may be worth the peace of mind.
In summary, we've got what appears to be a left transmission axle seal leak (and possibly another leak elsewhere according to Honda advisor) identified by two mechanics. Yet, after three months and 700 miles no measurable loss of fluid.
What do you think guys?
Wanted to share some of the things I've discovered. Took the car back to Honda dealer today to get a second opinion. Was concerned that they didn't flag the problem when they changed the trans fluid 3 months ago (thought it was last month but its been 3 months, 700 miles). They, of course, said that the seal should be replaced and they'd be glad to do it for $250 (one seal only). They implied that there may be another leak as the fluid was found in another spot on the transmission (although they said it is possible that it got there from the seal).
I had them point out where the filler bolt is so I can check it myself (it is a 17mm bolt on passenger side of trany; difficult to access without car lift as it requires that one be underneath the car). I also had them check to see if the fluid level was low. It was not as fluid flowed out when the bolt was removed.
Honda advisor said my idea of waiting until cv axle (boot) needed replacement was flawed because the left cv axle has a separate extension axle that attaches to the seal. Therefore, the repairs would be unrelated.
Lynx, your idea about the overflow was a good one but I suspect that that is not the source. Assuming that the port for pouring the fluid in is the same one that one checks the level (17mm passenger side bolt mentioned above) then it is on the opposite side of the supposedly leaky seal. I think you are right about the shifting getting difficult as I have seem to remember a similar experience. Importantly, the Honda advisor said that the 5th gear is separate from the other gears on this model and that if the fluid level gets low that that gear would go. If this is right, I suppose it is possible that the fluid level could get low and one would lose the 5th gear before any sign of shifting difficulty (intercity driving). He said a subsequent design improvement eliminated this 5th gear vulnerability.
I put a pan beneath the seal to determine the amount of overnight leakage. So far, narry a drop. Honda service rep suggested that leakage occurs when vehicle is moving and fluid is hot.
My feeling is that I'll try to access the 17mm check bolt myself and monitor it closely for a few months. But I've got to admit, I'm concerned about Spec R's comment that the seal could fall out. If I knew it were the original seal I'd go ahead and replace them both but I had a new transmission installed about 10 years ago and I don't know if they put in new seals. Independent shop's $165 estimate for replacement of BOTH seals may be worth the peace of mind.
In summary, we've got what appears to be a left transmission axle seal leak (and possibly another leak elsewhere according to Honda advisor) identified by two mechanics. Yet, after three months and 700 miles no measurable loss of fluid.
What do you think guys?
10-23-2009, 05:41 AM
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Hmmm....well if it's not really dripping or leaking far as you can tell, it sounds like normal wear and the fluid is starting to seep out.
If you had a new trans installed, it must have new seals. That's not a part to reuse, they're only like $12 parts. I would get them both changed for peace of mind.
The bolt the mechanic pointed out is the fill/check plug. When you remove it, fluid should not come out, but if you put your finger in it the fluid should be close to the bottom of the hole.
If you had a new trans installed, it must have new seals. That's not a part to reuse, they're only like $12 parts. I would get them both changed for peace of mind.
The bolt the mechanic pointed out is the fill/check plug. When you remove it, fluid should not come out, but if you put your finger in it the fluid should be close to the bottom of the hole.
11-01-2009, 01:35 PM
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If the trans fluid flowed out when he removed the plug it was actually over-full. However if the car was hot, the fluid would have developed bubbles and expanded so if it was just running slowly, or barely at all it was ok. When it comes to fluid, oil or trans, too much is always worse than not enough. With the exception of very little over is better than nothing at all.
11-02-2009, 09:46 PM
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Conclusion of this Issue (hopefully)
Went ahead and paid $130 labor (leaking seal only) and $10 for OEM seal. Figured that seal leak would only get worse. Didn't want to worry about this problem since it is difficult to monitor fluid level and transmissions are expensive.
11-09-2009, 06:03 PM
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Additional Consideration B4 This Repair and Muffler Issue
The day after I had the transmission axle seal replaced I took the car to Midas to replace the muffler. The Service Manager there asked me if I had changed the motor oil recently, noted the oil filter was just above the transmission seal (L), and suggested that the seal may have not been leaking at all but was a result of oil spilled when the oil filter was changed. I did not recognize this possibility but I would hope that the two mechanics who examined the seal considered and justifiably ruled out this as a source of the oil around the seal. So, FYI before replacing a leaking seal consider its proximity to the oil filter and, if it was changed recently, make sure the leaking oil is from the transmission and not motor oil.
As an important aside, a note about the muffler experience. When replacing a muffler make sure that it has a drainage hole on the appropriate side. Midas put a muffler with a left drain hole when my integra required one on the right side. As a result the muffler lasted only 2.5 years. The muffler you want on a 1988 Integra from Midas is a Walker. The Walker is more expensive for Midas (if you have the lifetime replacement guarantee) but if you don't insist on one you'll find yourself paying for the labor to install a new muffler more often.
As an important aside, a note about the muffler experience. When replacing a muffler make sure that it has a drainage hole on the appropriate side. Midas put a muffler with a left drain hole when my integra required one on the right side. As a result the muffler lasted only 2.5 years. The muffler you want on a 1988 Integra from Midas is a Walker. The Walker is more expensive for Midas (if you have the lifetime replacement guarantee) but if you don't insist on one you'll find yourself paying for the labor to install a new muffler more often.