ls vtech build
04-19-2006, 11:17 AM
#21
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Originally Posted by dubcac
A few points:
Identical bottom ends, the B16 head was ported by portflow, had springs/retainers, ITR manifold, and a CTR intake cam/ITR exhaust cam. GSR head was stock, with ITR cams. The GSR head made 7whp and 4wtq over the B16 head, which utilized a higher flowing manifold, more aggressive intake cam, and a port job. If you want to maintain that the B16 head is better, that's fine...but you're wrong. I bet that guarantee isn't looking so hot on your part right now is it. I would trust one of the best engine builders and tuners on the entire west coast over some douches at SHO any day of the week. Do you even know why the ITR uses the PR4/B16 head? The GSR got the new technology honda developed, but they used the PR4 head on the ITR because they were overstocked of head castings at the factory, and they wanted to get rid of them. So take that for what you want. You can't dispute or debate numbers like that, I don't care what you've seen. I have never ever seen a b16 head make more power than a GSR on the same motor...on a B16, GSR, LSVTEC or CRVTEC.
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Identical bottom ends, the B16 head was ported by portflow, had springs/retainers, ITR manifold, and a CTR intake cam/ITR exhaust cam. GSR head was stock, with ITR cams. The GSR head made 7whp and 4wtq over the B16 head, which utilized a higher flowing manifold, more aggressive intake cam, and a port job. If you want to maintain that the B16 head is better, that's fine...but you're wrong. I bet that guarantee isn't looking so hot on your part right now is it. I would trust one of the best engine builders and tuners on the entire west coast over some douches at SHO any day of the week. Do you even know why the ITR uses the PR4/B16 head? The GSR got the new technology honda developed, but they used the PR4 head on the ITR because they were overstocked of head castings at the factory, and they wanted to get rid of them. So take that for what you want. You can't dispute or debate numbers like that, I don't care what you've seen. I have never ever seen a b16 head make more power than a GSR on the same motor...on a B16, GSR, LSVTEC or CRVTEC.
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Originally Posted by dubcac
2. In your first post, you said that he should use OEM VTEC internals in the block, instead of going forged. That makes your LSVTEC build completely pointless. Swapping in VTEC internals into an LS block means that you'll have the VTEC stroke, which is no different than the original VTEC motor...meaning you're not getting the added displacement and torque. If you want to rev an LS bottom end to 8k, all you need is ARP rod bolts. Higher than that, go aftermarket. I've even seen stock LS motors hold 8k and boost, but it's a hit or miss situation.
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Originally Posted by dubcac
3. VAFC's suck, whether its the first or second gen...it's not a tuning solution.
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04-19-2006, 11:56 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by AF
Rods, rod bolts and head studs are weak points in both the B18B, B20B and B20Z as far as RPM limitations are concerned.
04-19-2006, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Sirfallsalot243
Youre going to tell me that a stock GSR head made more power than a B16 with work done to it? Try another one.
Keeping the LS rods (preferable forged since these are weakpoints of the LS motor) and using VTEC pistons would keep the same stroke, while using pistons that were designed to handle the higher redline. Like you said, its hit or miss. VTEC pistons are more suitable for such applications if Forged internals are not in the budget.
I agree, no doubt. However (once again), budget is what drives my argument behind the VAFC. Its cheap, and it does a half decent job at tuning. If in the budget, a better option would be to convert to OBD1 and run Hondata. However in some states (in PA for example) you cannot convert a newer chassis to an older computer setup. My Integra came OBD2, and for it to pass inspection, it has to stay OBD2.
Keeping the LS rods (preferable forged since these are weakpoints of the LS motor) and using VTEC pistons would keep the same stroke, while using pistons that were designed to handle the higher redline. Like you said, its hit or miss. VTEC pistons are more suitable for such applications if Forged internals are not in the budget.
I agree, no doubt. However (once again), budget is what drives my argument behind the VAFC. Its cheap, and it does a half decent job at tuning. If in the budget, a better option would be to convert to OBD1 and run Hondata. However in some states (in PA for example) you cannot convert a newer chassis to an older computer setup. My Integra came OBD2, and for it to pass inspection, it has to stay OBD2.
I wouldn't even call a VAFC a "half decent job at tuning." There is absolutely no spark control.
04-19-2006, 08:53 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by Sirfallsalot243
Youre going to tell me that a stock GSR head made more power than a B16 with work done to it? Try another one.
Keeping the LS rods (preferable forged since these are weakpoints of the LS motor) and using VTEC pistons would keep the same stroke, while using pistons that were designed to handle the higher redline. Like you said, its hit or miss. VTEC pistons are more suitable for such applications if Forged internals are not in the budget.
I agree, no doubt. However (once again), budget is what drives my argument behind the VAFC. Its cheap, and it does a half decent job at tuning. If in the budget, a better option would be to convert to OBD1 and run Hondata. However in some states (in PA for example) you cannot convert a newer chassis to an older computer setup. My Integra came OBD2, and for it to pass inspection, it has to stay OBD2.
Originally Posted by Sirfallsalot243
Dude, this is the first place ive EVER seen anyone say that the GSR makes more power. Both of the LSVTECs ive worked on (one B16 one GSR all stock) the B16 made more power.
Blue = GSR head
Red = B16 head
here's the text from the article:
"This is a VERY good comparison to look at...
Question: What is the best head to put on my LS/VTEC, GS-R or B16A?
Answer: In the opinion of Atomic and myself, I have to go with a GS-R head.
Look at the graph...here is the 2 motors
On 1 side we have the LS/VTEC B16A head...coming in at 180 HP
The bottom end is EXACTLY the same as the GS-R LS/VTEC...exactly...
so it makes for a good comparison.
B16A has:
port flow port/polish (mild)
Civic Type-R intake cam
ITR exhaust cam
Comp valve springs/retainers
Type-R intake manifold
GS-R head has:
Stock head
Stock valvetrain
Stock intake manifold
ITR cams, intake and exhaust.
and it made a little more power, as you can see by chart.
With the GS-R head, you also will definitely get more torque.
For the money though, B16A head is a good choice.
Remember, this is not a perfect test, it just shows a pattern....
Jeff"
Now, Jeff is the owner/operator of ImportBuilders. He is regarded as one of the best engine builders on the west coast, and people from all over the country send their motors to him. So if you don't want to believe the raw data, or the opinion of someone like him, go right ahead and be dumb.
05-03-2006, 03:21 PM
#26
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if you really want it broken down to what works the best for a b18 here is a awesome link. regardless of what type of build or how much power you want this will give you some very helpful information
http://www.team-integra.net/sections...p?ArticleID=19
http://www.team-integra.net/sections...p?ArticleID=19
05-05-2006, 08:52 PM
#27
OK.. I'm not even gonna try to throw my testicles on this table wrt the b16 / b18 head question, but I can tell you this: I am mid ls/vtec build right now. From what I've read, you MUST have stronger bottom end to withstand revs of 8-9K. GSRs and ITRs have a 3 main girdle in the bottom end to help out, in addition to a better balanced crank, if I read correctly. LS crank is essential for your stroke, so it's KEY to replace your rod studs and put in a GSR / ITR girdle or get an aftermarket girdle. Bigger the better. I'm going to be block guarding mine, too.. just to be safe. I don't need my cylinders moving anywhere.
Incidentally, I saw enough dyno results and discussions on this in MANY forums during my months of research for this build. I bought a PR4 head (GSR) from Clearwater Cylinder heads (recast is fine w/ a quick port) and it looks AWESOME! Got here today sporting better compression than the used b16a heads I saw on ebay and at all the jdm websites PLUS it's got a warranty. How the hell do you beat that?! I just won my vtec solenoid and will probably buy the z10 3-main girdle and new rod studs when I get my golden eagle vtec conversion kit (modacar rules!). You guys might think that kit is pussy, but I don't have time / money for all the machining garbage. Then, it's just a couple knick-nacks and a moates.net trip for the ecu (auto to manual) and I'm good to go.
Incidentally, I saw enough dyno results and discussions on this in MANY forums during my months of research for this build. I bought a PR4 head (GSR) from Clearwater Cylinder heads (recast is fine w/ a quick port) and it looks AWESOME! Got here today sporting better compression than the used b16a heads I saw on ebay and at all the jdm websites PLUS it's got a warranty. How the hell do you beat that?! I just won my vtec solenoid and will probably buy the z10 3-main girdle and new rod studs when I get my golden eagle vtec conversion kit (modacar rules!). You guys might think that kit is pussy, but I don't have time / money for all the machining garbage. Then, it's just a couple knick-nacks and a moates.net trip for the ecu (auto to manual) and I'm good to go.
05-19-2006, 08:24 AM
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The b16 head is better IF you plan on running a turbo because the head has better flow. BUT the b18c1 head is better if you plan on going all motor. gsr heads produce higher CP and are hondata compatible if you are using an obd1 computer. oh and you can rev to 8000rpm's with a b18a/b if you change the all of the bearings in the bottom end to gsr bearings!!! the bearing fit perfectly, no machining is required!!
05-19-2006, 12:20 PM
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Girdles are only needed on GSR and ITR motors, or on LS/VTEC motors (these need girdles because of the even longer rods in the B18A/B) because of the rod/stroke ratio. The rods are longer, hence more material, and they have a larger moment of inertia... This is why B16 blocks do not have them, nor do they need them.
As for heads, GSR has less volume, hence will gove more compression. The B16 heads "flow better" because of the intake ports. On the GSR they are slightly different to accommodate the variable length intake manifold.
Work on any head is only good for top-end power, who cares if u can get an extra 10 hp on top end (7600-8000) if you lose power lower in the RPM band.
And as for the pistons limiting the redline, this is incorrect. Pistons simply transfer the power to the rods, the rods are what rotate, hence they have a larger moment of inertia, aka once moving they are harder to stop, remember physics class??
As for tuning with a vafc, good luck... someone already said that it has no spark control, and I totoally agree. For the same price as a VAFC ($200+) you could get an eeprom programmer and use uberdata or the like.
As for B18hatch, I would go with whatever is cheaper, however, the differences are slight, and if your going all motor a GSR will yield a higher C/R.
In addition, GSR heads are said to have better cams, although this is also not reeally important unless you are really going to build the motor for all-motor use.
But I would say one additional thing, the VTEC motors are ENGINEERED to rev-high and the non-vtec motors are not, so take care in revving them too high, or you might end up with a rod shooting out of your block
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As for heads, GSR has less volume, hence will gove more compression. The B16 heads "flow better" because of the intake ports. On the GSR they are slightly different to accommodate the variable length intake manifold.
Work on any head is only good for top-end power, who cares if u can get an extra 10 hp on top end (7600-8000) if you lose power lower in the RPM band.
And as for the pistons limiting the redline, this is incorrect. Pistons simply transfer the power to the rods, the rods are what rotate, hence they have a larger moment of inertia, aka once moving they are harder to stop, remember physics class??
As for tuning with a vafc, good luck... someone already said that it has no spark control, and I totoally agree. For the same price as a VAFC ($200+) you could get an eeprom programmer and use uberdata or the like.
As for B18hatch, I would go with whatever is cheaper, however, the differences are slight, and if your going all motor a GSR will yield a higher C/R.
In addition, GSR heads are said to have better cams, although this is also not reeally important unless you are really going to build the motor for all-motor use.
But I would say one additional thing, the VTEC motors are ENGINEERED to rev-high and the non-vtec motors are not, so take care in revving them too high, or you might end up with a rod shooting out of your block
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