Nissan buying Hybrid technology from Toyota

[DVPGSR]

TOKYO (APOnline) — Toyota and Nissan announced Monday that they will work together to develop hybrid gas-electric cars. Under the deal, Toyota will supply components for Nissan models sold in the United States starting in 2006, targeting 100,000 vehicles over a five-year period. Hybrid vehicles reduce polluting emissions by switching back and forth between a gasoline engine and an electric motor. They're also more convenient than all-electric vehicles because they run on regular gas and don't have to be recharged. Toyota has taken the global lead in introducing mass-produced hybrid vehicles, having rolled out the Prius hybrid sedan in 1997. Since then, Toyota has sold 120,000 hybrid vehicles worldwide. Toyota has a general agreement with U.S. automaker General Motors to cooperate on environmentally friendly technologies. But no specific deal on hybrids, like the one with Nissan, has been reached with the Detroit manufacturer, Toyota said. In the past, Nissan, which is 44.4% owned by Renault SA of France, has repeatedly said producing hybrid vehicles has not been profitable. It discontinued its Tino hybrid hatchback after selling a limited number in 2000, but continued spending on the technology. Buying hybrid system parts from Toyota will allow Nissan to cut development costs. The world's major automakers have all been working on hybrid technology. Tokyo-based Honda also has begun selling hybrid models. While this may help Nissan get into the hybrid race here in America one can only wonder if they will market their cars as "The most powerfull hybrids on the planet"

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[LuckyDog]

If you dyno an electric motor, won't you get the same results across the board? Sounds like lieing about the HP may soon have to stop. Just kidding. I think this is smart on Nissan's idea, but I woundn't be suprised if this is also being done to pressure Honda (which resides in the #2 spot between these two companies).

[yianni64]

Originally posted by LuckyDog
If you dyno an electric motor, won't you get the same results across the board? Sounds like lieing about the HP may soon have to stop. Just kidding. I think this is smart on Nissan's idea, but I woundn't be suprised if this is also being done to pressure Honda (which resides in the #2 spot between these two companies).

It'll be funny when Toyota supplies some eletric motors to Nissan, and on the way from the Toyota to Nissan plant they gain 15hp

[fastball]

Even though the Prius was out before the Insight or Civic Hybrid, the Civic is a more "normal" looking vehicle without any quirks that set the others aside as "hybrids" instead of just cars. When all the dust settles on the hybrid race, I think Honda will win, and that's not just because I like Honda. The C-H is just another Civic, with even better seats, all power, and a completely useable car. The Prius is, as well, but it has an ugly dashboard set up with the stupid info center in the middle. The car is not very attractive, either. Now, if Toyota made a hybrid Corolla, THEN the race would heat up.

[yianni64]

Originally posted by fastball
Even though the Prius was out before the Insight or Civic Hybrid, the Civic is a more "normal" looking vehicle without any quirks that set the others aside as "hybrids" instead of just cars. When all the dust settles on the hybrid race, I think Honda will win, and that's not just because I like Honda. The C-H is just another Civic, with even better seats, all power, and a completely useable car. The Prius is, as well, but it has an ugly dashboard set up with the stupid info center in the middle. The car is not very attractive, either. Now, if Toyota made a hybrid Corolla, THEN the race would heat up.

Their making a hyrbid Camry too. I expect to see a hybrid Accord withing 2-3 years.

[Troopa-R]

It makes sense. I think both Toyota and Nissan still look at Honda as that little upstart motorcycle company that's eating into their turf.

[kazi]

Originally posted by Eternal RSXness
It makes sense. I think both Toyota and Nissan still look at Honda as that little upstart motorcycle company that's eating into their turf.

That's what I love about Honda's history. Working from underdog status to being a threat and envy to most of its peers on both sides of the Pacific.

[mentaloriental]

This is true. When Japanese companies started building cars the gov't saw 2 companies, Toyota (Toyoda for those in the know) and Nissan (was it Datsun back then?). Honda was never part of the gov't's plan to elevate Japanese cars to the world market. Hell, Japan even limited the amount of vehicles Honda could export to the US. Gotta love Soichiro for givin' them the finger!

[asianautica]

Originally posted by kazi


That's what I love about Honda's history. Working from underdog status to being a threat and envy to most of its peers on both sides of the Pacific.

Saying envy is a little exagerated. Sure Nissan started earlier so when you count the beginning, then Nissan is bigger than Honda. But Honda and Nissan has been similar in size in the recent past. Due to the near bankrupcy (sp?) in the mid 90s, Honda has taken then 2nd spot but the difference is still not that large. I don't think Toyota feel threaten either. They're just too big.

[kazi]

Originally posted by asianautica


Saying envy is a little exagerated. Sure Nissan started earlier so when you count the beginning, then Nissan is bigger than Honda. But Honda and Nissan has been similar in size in the recent past. Due to the near bankrupcy (sp?) in the mid 90s, Honda has taken then 2nd spot but the difference is still not that large. I don't think Toyota feel threaten either. They're just too big.

Envy was meant towards the other side of the Pacific - GM and Ford and Chrysler. Threat was used mostly for the domestics and Nissan too. I'm sure Nissan wished it had many of Honda's highlights. Like the hybrid technology and cam-changing VVT (VTEC).

I'm sure Toyota does feel a little threaten by the fact that Honda is growing so fast for its relatively small size as a company and its always following one foot ahead or behind its products. Honda did steal the light way from Toyota for first production hybrid vehicle in Japan and USA. Honda was also the first Japanese car manufacturer with a luxury brand in the USA, 5 years ahead of Toyota and Nissan and breaking the mold for them. I believe there's a little bit of envy in that.

[asianautica]

Originally posted by kazi


Envy was meant towards the other side of the Pacific - GM and Ford and Chrysler. Threat was used by mostly the domestics and Nissan too.

I'm sure Toyota does feel a little threaten by the fact that Honda is growing so fast for its relatively small size as a company and its always following one foot ahead or behind its products. Honda did steal the light way from Toyota for first production hybrid vehicle in Japan and USA. Honda was also the first Japanese car manufacturer with a luxury brand in the USA, 5 years ahead of Toyota and Nissan and breaking the mold for them. I believe there's a little bit of envy in that.

Ok, i get your point now. I'm sure GM, Ford, and Chrysler envy the 3 major Japanese auto maker.
I'm sure Toyota see the fast grow of Honda but they're also growing themselves, so I think they're just keeping an eye on the competitor more than feeling threaten by them, considering they're twice as large as Nissan and Honda. About the Honda being the first luxury brand in the US. That's true, but have you ever consider maybe Nissan and Toyota did not want to take the risk and be the guinnie (sp?) pig in a brand new market? They might have thought about it but didn't know how well it'll do so they let Honda test the water first and since Acura did well, Toyota and Nissan jumped in.

[kazi]

Originally posted by asianautica

About the Honda being the first luxury brand in the US. That's true, but have you ever consider maybe Nissan and Toyota did not want to take the risk and be the guinnie (sp?) pig in a brand new market? They might have thought about it but didn't know how well it'll do so they let Honda test the water first and since Acura did well, Toyota and Nissan jumped in.

Possibly, but then looking at it in a different perspective, maybe Toyota and Nissans saw Honda's success with Acura, even if it might have been their guinee(sp?) pig and envied their sucess so much they followed with their own luxury nameplates launch in 1991.

[asianautica]

Very true and I guess we'll never know the true answer because Toyota and Nissan will never admit that they were behind.

On the side note, what's the correct spelling for guinee? heheh.

[Troopa-R]

GUINEA.

And, I think, size wise, Nissan's still a pretty big company. Just saleswise, it's not.

And I do think Toyota looks at Honda enviously. While Toyota has pretty much a full lineup, Honda is still poised for expansion into high growth markets. And in the US, markets where Honda and Toyota fight head on, Honda is usually an equal, the market leader or limited by manufacturing.

It'd be stupid for Toyota not to take the Honda threat seriously. Nissan is still in recovery mode, and despite what Nissan fanatics would like to think, Nissan is still on a second tier to Honda and Toyota. The sales, the owner surveys, and public opinion all indicate that Nissan isn't on the same level as it's other two Japanese competitors.

[asianautica]

Toyota do have a pretty full line up but there's still several areas that they haven't enter, such as the big trucks and SUVs area. Tundra is nice for a first step but there's still bigger trucks and SUV that Toyota doesn't have an answer to.
Honda seems to me like they'll be staying in their area for quite awhile. They're great at what they do. Such as sedan, coupe, sporty car, van, and small SUV. But Honda did state that they're not planning to develope a V8 any time soon and segments that Honda doesn't have a car in require some sort of V8 with high TQ output. So they can continue to grow, but so can Toyota.
I agree Nissan is still in recovery mode. They were at the edge of bankruptcy only a few years ago. You can't turn 180 degree that quickly. In term of quality, as of right now, they're still behind Honda and Toyota. This is also due to the massive cost cutting to get as much profit as possible. They quality can only go us when they have more money to do so. Even with poor interior quality of the Altima, it's still selling like a hot cake. It might not out sale the Accord or the Camry because they can't produce that much anyways. Ever since it came out, month-to-month, the sales of the Altima has always been increasing. However, back to the main point, the fit and finish of Nissan right now is still behind Honda and Toyota.

Just my $.02

[98CoupeV6]

Originally posted by asianautica
Toyota do have a pretty full line up but there's still several areas that they haven't enter, such as the big trucks and SUVs area.

Doesn't Toyo have a full size SUV and a full size pickup?

[asianautica]

it has the Tundra and the Sequoia. But those are only intro to full size truck and SUV. Tundra competes w/ the F150. What about F250, F350, etc. Also, SUV, there's also SUV that's much bigger than the Sequoia.

Full size truck and SUV is just an example, Toyota has nothing to compete with the RSX or performance hatch like the Si and the SVT Focus. They also don't have performance compact Sedan like the Mazdaspeed protoge and the SE-R SpecV. They don't have a rally car to compete with the WRX either. Their luxury line is also not as full as say BMW and Benz either. Get my point?

[yianni64]

Originally posted by asianautica
it has the Tundra and the Sequoia. But those are only intro to full size truck and SUV. Tundra competes w/ the F150. What about F250, F350, etc. Also, SUV, there's also SUV that's much bigger than the Sequoia.

Full size truck and SUV is just an example, Toyota has nothing to compete with the RSX or performance hatch like the Si and the SVT Focus. They also don't have performance compact Sedan like the Mazdaspeed protoge and the SE-R SpecV. They don't have a rally car to compete with the WRX either. Their luxury line is also not as full as say BMW and Benz either. Get my point?

The Seqooia is big enough already. People who buy F-250's wont buy a Toyota.

Toyota has the Celica GT-S. And the Corolla is supposed to get a high powered version, or so a rumor said. Rally cars have just hit the USA, and their a niche market. Honda still needs to expand to core markets, such as trucks. Also, the Lexus lineup consist fo 5 cars and 3(GX470 is going to be out very soon) SUV's. BMW has 4 car lines and one SUV. But if you count all the variations, and M version, and the Z8, then your right. But what I'm trying to say is Lexus is on par with MB or BMW with 95% of people, as far as brand name goes at least.

[asianautica]

Originally posted by yianni64


The Seqooia is big enough already. People who buy F-250's wont buy a Toyota.

Toyota has the Celica GT-S. And the Corolla is supposed to get a high powered version, or so a rumor said. Rally cars have just hit the USA, and their a niche market. Honda still needs to expand to core markets, such as trucks. Also, the Lexus lineup consist fo 5 cars and 3(GX470 is going to be out very soon) SUV's. BMW has 4 car lines and one SUV. But if you count all the variations, and M version, and the Z8, then your right. But what I'm trying to say is Lexus is on par with MB or BMW with 95% of people, as far as brand name goes at least.

All points well taken. That's sorta what I mean w/ the trucks part. They gotta build repulation w/ the Tundra first and once they've proven themselves, maybe then they can move up to the F250 and so on. Toyota has most of the core market covered, how they gotta enter the niche market. While Honda has their niche market cover and need to fill up all the core market. When I was refering to Lexus, I was talking about all the variants. My point is there's still some room for Toyota to grow.

[yianni64]

Originally posted by asianautica


All points well taken. That's sorta what I mean w/ the trucks part. They gotta build repulation w/ the Tundra first and once they've proven themselves, maybe then they can move up to the F250 and so on. Toyota has most of the core market covered, how they gotta enter the niche market. While Honda has their niche market cover and need to fill up all the core market. When I was refering to Lexus, I was talking about all the variants. My point is there's still some room for Toyota to grow.

Right. If I was Honda, I wouldnt bother with the Element, I'd put that money behind a truck. Or maybe not. I dont know, people that buy trucks tend to be (not always) people that would only buy a ford or chevy. you know, those kind of people.

[asianautica]

Originally posted by yianni64


Right. If I was Honda, I wouldnt bother with the Element, I'd put that money behind a truck. Or maybe not. I dont know, people that buy trucks tend to be (not always) people that would only buy a ford or chevy. you know, those kind of people.

I know what you mean. And it's true, that's why Toyota is having a hard time penetrating that market. But they are trying and the Tundra is a good stepping stone. Eventually, when the japanese trucks get to a point where it's so obviously better, people will start noticing and maybe it'll be easier then. Nissan is also coming out w/ a full size truck so maybe 2 good Japanese full size truck will be easier to get people to think of japanese trucks as a worthy competitor as well.

[yianni64]

Originally posted by asianautica


I know what you mean. And it's true, that's why Toyota is having a hard time penetrating that market. But they are trying and the Tundra is a good stepping stone. Eventually, when the japanese trucks get to a point where it's so obviously better, people will start noticing and maybe it'll be easier then. Nissan is also coming out w/ a full size truck so maybe 2 good Japanese full size truck will be easier to get people to think of japanese trucks as a worthy competitor as well.

I wrote a really long reply, then IE crashed.

So basically, the mentality of the people that buy full size pick ups, a lot of the time - not all, limits them from buying anyhting but a good ol' Dodge/Chevy(GMC)/Ford......

So what Honda understand, is that for now at least, it's a lost cause, for them at least.

[asianautica]

Originally posted by yianni64



I wrote a really long reply, then IE crashed.

So basically, the mentality of the people that buy full size pick ups, a lot of the time - not all, limits them from buying anyhting but a good ol' Dodge/Chevy(GMC)/Ford......

So what Honda understand, is that for now at least, it's a lost cause, for them at least.

You should try mozilla if IE keep on crashing on you. I'm using it right now and it's really good.

That's very true because Honda has no V8 and large truck platform so it'll be much more expensive for them to do so. However, Toyota and Nissan can do it because They have V8s and are experienced w/ trucks so that's why they're trying to penetrate the truck market. It's a big segment that Japanese companies are not major players.

[JaydeeEmzOwnzYo]

For 2005 model year or so, the Corolla is gonna offer the Celica GT-S engine.

[JaydeeEmzOwnzYo]

Originally posted by kazi


Possibly, but then looking at it in a different perspective, maybe Toyota and Nissans saw Honda's success with Acura, even if it might have been their guinee(sp?) pig and envied their sucess so much they followed with their own luxury nameplates launch in 1991.

In the mid to late 80's Acura, to me, was not a luxurious auto manufacturer. When Lexus was relesed in the early 90's, it was much more of a luxurious company in my eyes, for example, the LS400.

[kazi]

Originally posted by JaydeeEmzOwnzYo
For 2005 model year or so, the Corolla is gonna offer the Celica GT-S engine.

Good for them.

Originally posted by JaydeeEmzOwnzYo
In the mid to late 80's Acura, to me, was not a luxurious auto manufacturer. When Lexus was relesed in the early 90's, it was much more of a luxurious company in my eyes, for example, the LS400.

You missed the whole point. Honda was the first Japanese automobile manufacturer to startup a premium name brand in the USA. Most of their peers and public had doubts that a Japanese company can break the mold for Japanese cars going upscale. Honda did it very successfully. Toyota and Nissan, both larger companies than Honda, seeing this mold broken (henced a little bit of envy) and followed with thier launch 5 years later.

[JaydeeEmzOwnzYo]

Originally posted by kazi


Good for them.


You missed the whole point. Honda was the first Japanese automobile manufacturer to startup a premium name brand in the USA. Most of their peers and public had doubts that a Japanese company can break the mold for Japanese cars going upscale. Honda did it very successfully. Toyota and Nissan, both larger companies than Honda, seeing this mold broken (henced a little bit of envy) and followed with thier launch 5 years later.

ok, understood. And today, who do you see as more upscale luxurious, Acura or Lexus. I would say they both have pros/cons and good points about each.

[Troopa-R]

Originally posted by JaydeeEmzOwnzYo


ok, understood. And today, who do you see as more upscale luxurious, Acura or Lexus. I would say they both have pros/cons and good points about each.

That's not what you said and that's not the point.

You said that in the 80s, to you, Acura was not a luxury marque. ToAnd at some level, it's true. It's like if Hyundai or Kia came out with a luxury marque today. However, for the time, the Integra and Legend were more luxurious than any other Japanese car sold in the US, and a Japanese luxury marque was something that hadn't been done before. True, Toyota and Nissan did it better with Lexus and Infiniti, but Honda was the first to push the concept of luxurious Japanese cars in America.

[98CoupeV6]

Originally posted by Eternal RSXness
Nissan did it better with...Infiniti

Gonna hafta take issue to this. Only recently has Infiniti had some reputable cars...The Legend outsold the Q for years and years, everyone and they momma wanted a Legend. The Integra always kicked the G20's ass. The 1st gen TL/Vigor weren't anywhere near successful, but they were as nice as their Infiniti counterparts. Only now is Nissan putting out better products (Q45, G35) than Acura, but Acuras will still sell more because Acura is a car for everyone, and Infiniti cannot copy their formula well...witness the weaksauce (as far as sales... but I like it better than the RL) Q45 and the no-luxury G35.

[yianni64]

Back to topic. I hope to see a hybrid Accord and CR-V, noth retaining their K24's but adding the IMA for better mileage and accelaration.