Latest on the next TL and RL

[98CoupeV6]

From Edmunds: TL After receiving a mild refresh in 2002, the TL is expected to get a full redesign for the 2004 model year. Like its predecessor, the new TL will ride on a modified version of the platform used for the Honda Accord. Although already known as a spacious sedan, rumors suggest a slightly larger size this time around. With the Accord now offering 240 horsepower from its V6, the TL will most likely get a power boost as well, with the top-range engine producing somewhere in the neighborhood of 280 horsepower. RL After languishing for the last several years without a significant redesign, the flagship RL is expected to get some major-league upgrades for the 2004 model year. Although there has been much speculation that it would switch to rear-wheel drive and offer a V8 powerplant like much of its competition, neither is very likely. Honda has continually denied the existence of an eight-cylinder engine program and the absence of a readily available rear-wheel-drive platform makes that switch just as unlikely. Expect a setup similar to the revamped TL, with front-wheel drive and a large V6 with nearly 300 horsepower. --------------------- From AW: RL Sources tell us that a high- performance hybrid Acura will arrive as the next RL sport-luxury sedan. The car’s 200-hp 3.0-liter V6 driving the front wheels gets a torquey 160-hp boost from an electric motor driving the rear wheels. Regenerative braking recharges the battery powering the electric motor. But I do expect the next RL to be a home run, as Honda is fond of doing with lackluster models. In concept form, as the 400-hp Acura DN-X sports sedan shown last spring in New York, and as the Honda Dualnote shown earlier in Tokyo, Honda officials claimed 42 mpg. Look for the hybrid RL by 2004. -------------------------------------- Conflicting reports. I kind of suspect that we will see a hybrid system in the next RL, but that article is full of misinformation...the RL has a 3.5L V6 producing 225HP, where do they get a 200HP 3.0L V6 from? I lean towards the AW report a bit more on the RL side, with the Hybrid AWD. I cannot see Honda putting 250+ WHP through the fronts. As for the TL, I would not be surprised to see 280HP. But to go that high without AWD is a bit risky. The TL getting bigger? WTF? It's already too big. We shall see soon enough, my friends..I suspect the next TL will prominently be featured at the NYIAS, if not the NAIAS

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[fastball]

I just wish Honda would quit tip-toeing arround with the RL and make it a rear driver. O.K., it doesn't HAVE to be V8, but I'm sorry. I know the sales figures aren't terrible, but I think Honda could really kick some you know what with rwd. 280 hp iVTEC V6 and a five speed auto driving the rear wheels. I tell ya, that could do the trick. They need reasons TO buy an RL, instead of reasons NOT TO buy another car. Right now, the only good reason TO buy an RL is NOT TO buy a Caddy Deville.

[98CoupeV6]

Originally posted by fastball
driving the rear wheels. I tell ya, that could do the trick.

You sound like you work at Nissan. How's the Q45 working out for you?

[integboi220]

for most people i dun think anyone would care if its RWD or FWD, v6 or v8...for the RL its not meant to be a performance car. as long as its a full size sedan with lots of features and luxuries it will sell. i for one don't car if the S class, 7 series or LS430 is a RWD or not as for V^ or V8 as long as it has enough power ill be happy

[fastball]

Originally posted by 98CoupeV6
You sound like you work at Nissan. How's the Q45 working out for you?

It's been selling like crap, but I can't figure it out. I mean, the Acura RL is outselling it for pete's sake! I mean, can you believe a front drive V6 outselling a Q45? I think we need to make the Q45 more expensive to compete with a 600SL.... yeah, that'll boost sales figures!

Seriously, I just wish Honda could broaden their horizons just a little. I'm sure the RL is a fantastic car the way it is, but can't Honda color outside the lines just once?

[Samson]

Originally posted by 98CoupeV6
TLRL

The TL getting bigger? WTF? It's already too big.

What are you talking about, the TL is in no way "big". What makes it too big IYO?

just curious

[98CoupeV6]

Originally posted by Samson
What are you talking about, the TL is in no way "big". What makes it too big IYO?

just curious

I'm talking in its class, since the TL is bigger than any of its competitors. That makes for not so good road manners compared to its competitors when you get to some performance driving, but it usually makes for a more comfortable ride. If they make it bigger, that tells me that the TL will become a luxurious model like the ES300 and the TSX will fight it out with the 3 series and IS300...but every single mag is gonna call it a dressed up Accord unless they do something special with it.

[Samson]

Originally posted by 98CoupeV6
I'm talking in its class, since the TL is bigger than any of its competitors. That makes for not so good road manners compared to its competitors when you get to some performance driving, but it usually makes for a more comfortable ride. If they make it bigger, that tells me that the TL will become a luxurious model like the ES300 and the TSX will fight it out with the 3 series and IS300...but every single mag is gonna call it a dressed up Accord unless they do something special with it.

point understood.

[MrFatbooty]

The TL isn't big. The new ES300 is big.

The TL, ES300 and I35 are not and have never been BMW-fighters. They're midsize FWD cars based on more pedestrian underpinnings like Accords, Camrys and Maximas.

Lexus and Infiniti figured this out, which is why if you have 35 grand to spend you can either get an IS300 or ES300 at the Lexus dealer or a G35 or I35 at the Infiniti dealer. How many people do you really think cross-shop an IS300 and ES300? The IS people would get in the ES and say it's a boat, and the ES people would get in the IS and say it's tiny.

[98CoupeV6]

TL

Length: 192.9 in.
Width: 70.3 in.
Height: 56.1 in.
Weight: 3492 lbs.
Wheel Base: 108.1 in.
Ground Clearance: 5.9 in.

ES

Length: 191.1 in.
Width: 71.3 in.
Height: 57.3 in.
Weight: 3439 lbs.
Wheel Base: 107.1 in.
Ground Clearance: 6.1 in.


But I agree with you...Acura needs to have a luxury and a sporty model in the entry level segment, but not to the extremes that Lexus has with the ES. That is way too soft.

[Samson]

Originally posted by 98CoupeV6


But I agree with you...Acura needs to have a luxury and a sporty model in the entry level segment, but not to the extremes that Lexus has with the ES. That is way too soft. [/b]

i totally agree with you, but the ES is a nice car, if thats what your looking for. Some people might love the ES for various reasons, and others might not. Some might love the Tl, and some might not. From my point of view, if a car sells, and it sells decently, then good for it. Every car has its speciality.

[Troopa-R]

I think the 3.0L 200hp V6 thing isn't misinformation. It's trying to tell us that's the gas engine that the 04RL will have powering the front wheels, with a 160hp IMA electric motor powering the rear wheels. (Although one wonders if this is how Honda is gonna go, why they don't just put the 03 Accord's engine in, save the minor engine retooling costs, and have that 400hp RL IMA.)

I for one think, so long as Honda is refusing to produce a V8, is an awesome compromise. It'll outpower both in horsepower and torque all the competition, get insane fuel mileage, and have the security of all wheel drive.

Maybe we were wrong before when we all speculated that the DualNote was a NSX prototype. It looks like Honda was aiming for the new Legend/RL with the DualNote. (come on... it was kind of weird thinking about a NSX as a four door sport sedan, like the DualNote)

As for the TL, I dunno. This might be a good time for Honda to consider moving the entire Acura line to an all AWD setup. Set up the AWD system in the next TL or just shove the Accord engine up front with a 60hp IMA powering the rears. 300hp for an ES300 fighter? And the IMA would compensate for all the "torqueless wonder"ness that people still associate with Hondas.

[ben1233]

Originally posted by 98CoupeV6
But I agree with you...Acura needs to have a luxury and a sporty model in the entry level segment, but not to the extremes that Lexus has with the ES. That is way too soft. [/b]

So you think the ES is too soft, even with the presence of the IS? I'd tend to agree with that, but only if we didn't have the IS.... Does anyone else think the ES is one of the worst looking cars on the road? Man, I think its nasty.

[rb6teg]

yeah, I about puked the first time I saw that thing.......it's huge, and it looks like it's going to eat you........

Toyota's ugly new styling taken to the xtreme.....my mom's not a car person, and she even commented on it, as our neighbors bought an ES.....she pointed at it as we drove by and said..."their new car is ugly, what is that thing?"

[fastball]

That's one thing Honda tends to avoid, and I think it's a good thing. They don't try to go too far off the beaten path, and while it won't win over tough design critics, most people aren't offended. They aren't inspired, either, but the low key, conservative approach holds up well over time. How many Honda's look dated? A 1990 Accord coupe looks as good today as when it was new. How about a 1990 Pontiac Grand Prix? Period styling gets the car locked into an era. Tail fins of the 1950's. EVERYBODY knows when those cars were built. But crisp, conservative looks stay fresh for years.

[98CoupeV6]

Originally posted by fastball
That's one thing Honda tends to avoid, and I think it's a good thing. They don't try to go too far off the beaten path, and while it won't win over tough design critics, most people aren't offended. They aren't inspired, either, but the low key, conservative approach holds up well over time. How many Honda's look dated? A 1990 Accord coupe looks as good today as when it was new. How about a 1990 Pontiac Grand Prix? Period styling gets the car locked into an era. Tail fins of the 1950's. EVERYBODY knows when those cars were built. But crisp, conservative looks stay fresh for years.

Very, very good point. I like to use the Celica - G3 Integra example. The G3 Integra was around for 8 model years, which is absolutely nuts, yet I'd say it looks better than the new Celica. The Celica is a "now" design, which I hate. Honda designs for 10 years in the future, I believe. I liked the Celica's design when it first came out, ALOT. But now it looks bloated and too edgy when I see it next to an RSX or a G3 Integra. While Honda may get blasted for being "conservative" and "bland", tell me this: Which looks better, a 2003 Chevy Monte Carlo or a 2003 Honda Accord Coupe? The latter is "bland and conservative", but it's obvious to every non-redneck who doesn't own a 'Calvin pissing on Ford' sticker that the Accord not only looks far better now, it will in 20 years. Good stuff.

Ben, while the ES is selling like hotcakes (projected 70k this year, that is CRAZY), I think it's way too soft. It is completely isolated from the road. In a sense, it's like a refined Buick. Very refined. But people seem to love it, so maybe it's just me and the enthusiasts that feel this way. And yeah, it's really really ugly. My dad strangely likes the design(and he owns an S2K), but he's the only one I know.

babs, the thing was that the article said it like the RL had a 3.0L V6 now. That's what confused me. I was thinking that the RL would go Hybrid, until I read that article about the Acura 400HP Hybrid. That confused me a ton. I just don't understand how they can get 160HP out of an electric motor...I mean, the freaking Hybrid only has like 30HP out of its batteries I hope Honda puts Acura on the road to AWD and Hybrids across the board...but the problem is, people have TONS of misconceptions about Hybrids, from their reliability to their use. And anyone that drives the TL/CL Type-S and says it has no torque MUST own one of those Calvin stickers.

[Samson]

i think the change for the ES is good, because its been selling a lot more compared to previous years. So even though it may be slighlty *differen* people must be liking it enough.

[More&Faster]

i think moving the RL to IMA is an awesome idea, and im not usually an advocate of hybrid technology. i hated the idea of the DN-X, and i ever hate the insight, just because both of those cars make too many compromises and neither one could realistically compete against any other cars out there. but an IMA RL is a great idea because its a convenient way to get awd, plus its a heavy car to begin with, so adding 500 pounds of batteries and such wont be a big deal. whereas on the DN-X and insight, weight is absolutely crucial. however, if honda chooses not to go IMA on the RL, i think they should stick with the current platform. acuras command a niche market right now, and changing to rwd would throw it away. think about how many people there are who live in cold areas where ice is a common problem, and theyre in the market for a luxury sedan. all the luxury/sport sedans out there are rwd and difficult and dangerous to drive in the snow. changing to rwd would sortof like turning theyre back on all theyre customers. front drive works just fine for now, and theres no good reason to change it.

[98CoupeV6]

Originally posted by More&Faster
i think moving the RL to IMA is an awesome idea, and im not usually an advocate of hybrid technology. i hated the idea of the DN-X, and i ever hate the insight, just because both of those cars make too many compromises and neither one could realistically compete against any other cars out there. but an IMA RL is a great idea because its a convenient way to get awd, plus its a heavy car to begin with, so adding 500 pounds of batteries and such wont be a big deal. whereas on the DN-X and insight, weight is absolutely crucial. however, if honda chooses not to go IMA on the RL, i think they should stick with the current platform. acuras command a niche market right now, and changing to rwd would throw it away. think about how many people there are who live in cold areas where ice is a common problem, and theyre in the market for a luxury sedan. all the luxury/sport sedans out there are rwd and difficult and dangerous to drive in the snow. changing to rwd would sortof like turning theyre back on all theyre customers. front drive works just fine for now, and theres no good reason to change it.

A sensible man. Very good points

Samson, you're right, considering that Toyota will sell more ES's than Honda has EVER sold TL's.

[fastball]

IMA should prove its practicality in the new RL. Yes, it's been proven with sub-compact and compact econoboxes, but for real perfomance applications, I see some good things to come for IMA's if this works out.

[Tirod]

they need an awd like bmw's 38/62 rear to front...

[yianni64]

Originally posted by Tirod-[EJ]
they need an awd like bmw's 38/62 rear to front...

awd that is constantly changing power distribution is more ideal. bmw makes it 38/62 to make it feel more like a rwd car.

anyways. I think the RL is perfect for a high power IMA system. People who cars afford expensive luxury sedans dont worry too much about price.

Anyways, theres lots of potential here.

[Troopa-R]

The IMA talk for the RL brings a very valid question: Will the 04 RL qualify for the government Hybrid vehicle tax credit and qualify for single occupant carpool passes in California?

The second point alone should nab some buyers.

[DVPGSR]

The exterior of the ES is alright...but I absolutely love the interior...I think it is one of the best of any carmanufacturer.

I agree with what has been said about the TL...however with the increase in HP, and if it is going to also increase in size, is this going to be Acura's 5 series competitor? Especially with the TSX coming in.

As for the RL there is just way too much speculation out there to say exactly what it will look like. I would tend to think that the engine the new RL will get will be a modified version of the one in the Pilot and MDX keeping the fornt wheel drive platform. Something is telling me too that the next RL will also have something to set it apart from the competition as well...probably IMA, possibly IMA and AWD...both would be great. If Honda is able to put in a nice smooth 6 with IMA I cannot see them ever making a V8...and since they are not making a V8 now it is my hypothesis the next RL will have IMA of some form.

[98CoupeV6]

Originally posted by DVPGSR
The exterior of the ES is alright...but I absolutely love the interior...I think it is one of the best of any carmanufacturer.

I agree with what has been said about the TL...however with the increase in HP, and if it is going to also increase in size, is this going to be Acura's 5 series competitor? Especially with the TSX coming in.

As for the RL there is just way too much speculation out there to say exactly what it will look like. I would tend to think that the engine the new RL will get will be a modified version of the one in the Pilot and MDX keeping the fornt wheel drive platform. Something is telling me too that the next RL will also have something to set it apart from the competition as well...probably IMA, possibly IMA and AWD...both would be great. If Honda is able to put in a nice smooth 6 with IMA I cannot see them ever making a V8...and since they are not making a V8 now it is my hypothesis the next RL will have IMA of some form.

I agree with everything there. The J35 would be ideal as it has very good low end punch and gets pretty damn good gas mileage already. Good points bro. I'd expect to see the TL moving between (but more towards the lower end than the higher end) the ES and GS/C and E/3 and 5/A4 and A6 and the TSX moving to the base of the lower end models of each manufacturer, so like the 9-3, A4 1.8T, S40...ya'll get the idea. But I cannot see the TL being any more than 38 grand, TOPS. Honda won't raise prices like that, it'll be bad PR.

[MPM77]

My guess is that if they made the TL bigger it would not be by much probably an inch or two. Also, 280hp in a fwd TL would not be too much. Look at the Seville, fwd 300hp. Ok it is torquey but Honda is much better at fwd than Caddy.

Right now the RL sells mainly because of its low price when compared to its competitors. It also gets sales from the northern states that have cold snowy winters. The RL doesn't sell because of its styling, handling, power, or amenities. Therefore, the next generation RL should sell if it includes all the little goodies that other car manufacturers are offering. However, if Honda decides to make it a hybrid it could just be another Q45 letdown. Its success would hinge on how Honda markets it. For me a hybrid raises some serious questions. How much extra weight will it add? Where will all the extra batteries be located? Will trunk space be affected? How reliable will it be? Right now my RL has a large trunk and so-so rear legroom (actually an Avalon and even a Maxima have more rear leg room).

I'm note sure if other RL owners out there feel the way I do but here is a list of what I believe the next RL should improve or address:

Needs more power (at least 300hp) I would love a torquey V8 but its out of the question. The V6 must have low-end torque and not be a high revving engine (the RL is not a civic)

Better handling (w/o sacrificing ride quality)

A 5-spd auto with auto shift

Dual Climate control

Full size spare (hell my RL has a donut but get this the space where it sits in the trunk is filled with a styrofoam insert. Therefore, the space is large enough for a full size spare but some Honda cheapo opted not to include it.)

Dual Climate control

Power rear sunshades

One touch up/down on all windows

In dash 6-disc CD changer

The TL would also benefit from some of these amenities.

[98CoupeV6]

Originally posted by MPM77
My guess is that if they made the TL bigger it would not be by much probably an inch or two. Also, 280hp in a fwd TL would not be too much. Look at the Seville, fwd 300hp. Ok it is torquey but Honda is much better at fwd than Caddy.

Right now the RL sells mainly because of its low price when compared to its competitors. It also gets sales from the northern states that have cold snowy winters. The RL doesn't sell because of its styling, handling, power, or amenities. Therefore, the next generation RL should sell if it includes all the little goodies that other car manufacturers are offering. However, if Honda decides to make it a hybrid it could just be another Q45 letdown. Its success would hinge on how Honda markets it. For me a hybrid raises some serious questions. How much extra weight will it add? Where will all the extra batteries be located? Will trunk space be affected? How reliable will it be? Right now my RL has a large trunk and so-so rear legroom (actually an Avalon and even a Maxima have more rear leg room).

I'm note sure if other RL owners out there feel the way I do but here is a list of what I believe the next RL should improve or address:

Needs more power (at least 300hp) I would love a torquey V8 but its out of the question. The V6 must have low-end torque and not be a high revving engine (the RL is not a civic)

Better handling (w/o sacrificing ride quality)

A 5-spd auto with auto shift

Dual Climate control

Full size spare (hell my RL has a donut but get this the space where it sits in the trunk is filled with a styrofoam insert. Therefore, the space is large enough for a full size spare but some Honda cheapo opted not to include it.)

Dual Climate control

Power rear sunshades

One touch up/down on all windows

In dash 6-disc CD changer

The TL would also benefit from some of these amenities.

The TL already has most of those amenities. And do you mean sport shift instead of auto shift You raise a good point with the Hybrid thing, but I don't see how it can possibly be a let down. The reliability of the system has been proven several times over, and it comes with a 10 year warranty. Some truck space will obviously be forefeitted, but I'd take that compromise happily. I take issue on the RL not selling by styling (I think it is the best looking luxury car besides the S) and the Seville reference...have you ever read a review of that thing? To avoid torque steer, the steering is sworn to secrecy. I can't see a Hybrid AWD RL being a let down in any way except if something goes horribly wrong and it has 11 recalls in its first 3 years. But hey, the Focus has had that and it's still selling strong.

[yianni64]

Originally posted by 98CoupeV6
The TL already has most of those amenities. And do you mean sport shift instead of auto shift You raise a good point with the Hybrid thing, but I don't see how it can possibly be a let down. The reliability of the system has been proven several times over, and it comes with a 10 year warranty. Some truck space will obviously be forefeitted, but I'd take that compromise happily. I take issue on the RL not selling by styling (I think it is the best looking luxury car besides the S) and the Seville reference...have you ever read a review of that thing? To avoid torque steer, the steering is sworn to secrecy. I can't see a Hybrid AWD RL being a let down in any way except if something goes horribly wrong and it has 11 recalls in its first 3 years. But hey, the Focus has had that and it's still selling strong.

yes yes and yes. I really like the styling of the RL, it's really classy.

[MrFatbooty]

The RL has been essentially the same car since '96. In fact I remember going around test driving cars with my dad in May '96 to replace his '90 Legend. The RL was boring and my dad ended up getting the then "radical" Meercedes E420 even though I told him to wait for the E46 540i to come out. Anyway now my grandpa has an '02 RL and it's only very slightly less boring than the '96. It's definitely an old man car. Why is it stuck with the same 210 hp version of the motor when the Odyssey, Pilot and MDX all have 240 hp? Sure as hell seems to me that the flagship sedan needs at least as much power as the freakin minivan.

The RL is the only FWD car in the segment aside from the Cadillac Seville. If Honda wants to compare favorably to cars like the BMW 5-series, Audi A6, Lexus GS, Mercedes E-class, Infiniti M45 they're going to need RWD and they're going to need a V8. Otherwise whatever they come out with is just an expensive Japanese Cadillac. Honda tends to break into new segments non-aggressively but when they finally do they make a knockout product. Witness the Odyssey and Pilot. Hopefully Honda will figure out that the RL is woefully incomparable with the cars it's meant to compete with and make something really compelling.

[yianni64]

Originally posted by MrFatBooty
The RL has been essentially the same car since '96. In fact I remember going around test driving cars with my dad in May '96 to replace his '90 Legend. The RL was boring and my dad ended up getting the then "radical" Meercedes E420 even though I told him to wait for the E46 540i to come out. Anyway now my grandpa has an '02 RL and it's only very slightly less boring than the '96. It's definitely an old man car. Why is it stuck with the same 210 hp version of the motor when the Odyssey, Pilot and MDX all have 240 hp? Sure as hell seems to me that the flagship sedan needs at least as much power as the freakin minivan.

The RL is the only FWD car in the segment aside from the Cadillac Seville. If Honda wants to compare favorably to cars like the BMW 5-series, Audi A6, Lexus GS, Mercedes E-class, Infiniti M45 they're going to need RWD and they're going to need a V8. Otherwise whatever they come out with is just an expensive Japanese Cadillac. Honda tends to break into new segments non-aggressively but when they finally do they make a knockout product. Witness the Odyssey and Pilot. Hopefully Honda will figure out that the RL is woefully incomparable with the cars it's meant to compete with and make something really compelling.

Well, a lot of times Honda products are lame in the 1st gen, but are class leaders in the 2nd gen.
I think AWD and IMA is more likely (and better) than RWD and V8. With a 3.5L V6 and a couple of eletric motors, you'll have just as much, torque than a V8. And you'd have much better mileage. And you'd have AWD security. I think AWD suits a luxury car better than RWD does. What else. A V8 usually carries a good 5-10k premium on luxury cars compared to the V6 model. Doesnt is seem resonable that there can be a base RL with a V6 and for 5k more one with an AWD IMA system?

Let's just wait and see what Acura will do, have some faith in them.