Nissan buying Hybrid technology from Toyota

[asianautica]

Thanks, I really enjoy hearing and talking about cars in general. I'm a car enthusiast so I have no favorite brand, just favorite car. If that's your definition of muscle cars then you're contradicting yourself about the skyline and supra being muscle car because you said it yourself, they're no slouches in handling either. Great handling and massive power, what more do you want. It might not pose a threat to cars like the modena because they're in totally different price range and people who buy a modena probably want the ferrari name and no other brand can change their mind.

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[98CoupeV6]

Originally posted by asianautica
Thanks, I really enjoy hearing and talking about cars in general. I'm a car enthusiast so I have no favorite brand, just favorite car.

If that's your definition of muscle cars then you're contradicting yourself about the skyline and supra being muscle car because you said it yourself, they're no slouches in handling either. Great handling and massive power, what more do you want. It might not pose a threat to cars like the modena because they're in totally different price range and people who buy a modena probably want the ferrari name and no other brand can change their mind.

I said nothing about poising a threat to the 360 Modena. Neither does the NSX. I was talking about how the NSX made the boys in Modena (Ferrari) and Stuttgart (Porsche) re-think their philosophies. I did not contradict myself. The Supra and Skyline handle very well, but they are based in their power. This is also true of cars like the Corvette and SVT Mustang.

I am a car enthusiast, although I have an incredible hatred of Toyota because they're scum bags (they cheat to get ahead in racing) and I generally dislike all American cars with the exception of the SVT Mustang, Z06, Esperante, and S7. My favorite brand in general is Honda because of their philosophy and execution, although I would love a new 350Z or G35C in the near future over an Accord Coupe EX-V6 6 spd, if price allows. I shall see.

[kazi]

Originally posted by JaydeeEmzOwnzYo
that fact, if true, has nothing to do with their current line up, and who will buy them. I doubt highly that the average person says, " oh, im not gonna buy a toyota because they cheat in racing."

02RSXTYPES is not your average person, and Toyota did do a few cheap shots in CART racing to get ahead.

[iNteGraz92]

Originally posted by JaydeeEmzOwnzYo


that fact, if true, has nothing to do with their current line up, and who will buy them. I doubt highly that the average person says, " oh, im not gonna buy a toyota because they cheat in racing." The salesman who work for honda, are the scum bags, at least who ive dealt with, as well as my family.

nobody said anything about the average person. the average person is not a car enthusiast. and it is FACT that toyota does dirty things to get ahead in racing.
as for honda salesmen being scumbags... they're car salesmen

[iNteGraz92]

Originally posted by kazi


02RSXTYPES is not your average person, and Toyota did do a few cheap shots in CART racing to get ahead.

[98CoupeV6]

Originally posted by kazi


02RSXTYPES is not your average person, and Toyota did do a few cheap shots in CART racing to get ahead.

lol

[98CoupeV6]

Originally posted by asianautica
How do you know they are based on their power? If they handle very well, then wouldn't hat mean they also based on handling too? The Z06 also handles like mad too, as well has go very fast on the straight away. Why do you hate Toyota so much? What do you mean they are scum bags? Why did they cheat and when? I dislike alot of the american cars too. The Z06 besides it's performance (power and handling) is a horrible car. The interior is very cheap and it looks exactly like my friend's SS.

Toyota cheated because they couldn't get ahead with their engines, so they bought their way ahead. I cannot remember the exact circumstances, besides how they paid/forced CART to change to IRL-spec engines without telling Honda, so jaje will have to tell about it. My memory sucks.

Argue all you want, the Skyline and Supra were based on power. Anyone can look at the specs and tell you that. Some cars do some things well, others do others well. The Supra/Skyline do the drag strip the best, whereas the NSX is a completely different creature. You're getting caught up in symantics, please just take my statements at face value.

[kazi]

Originally posted by 02RSXTYPES


Toyota cheated because they couldn't get ahead with their engines, so they bought their way ahead. I cannot remember the exact circumstances, besides how they paid/forced CART to change to IRL-spec engines without telling Honda, so jaje will have to tell about it. My memory sucks.

Back in mid-2000, there was another situation where Toyota wasn't doing great in the CART standings and wasn't getting recognition in that racing league. So what did they do? They took Honda's sponsored Ganassi CART team, the only CART team in CART history to ever win 4 consecutive championship, and paid them more to drop thier Honda sponsorship and move to Toyota. At an autoshow, Toyota made a big deal about Ganassi's team being their crown jewel and their four-time CART championships, and displayed their cars with the Toyota names and such. What they didn't disclosed was the team they sponsored won their championships with Honda engines.

Here's a copy and paste from the Wall Street Journal from Sept 21, 2000:

As Honda Chief Executive Hiroyuki Yoshino strolled through the Toyota display at this year's Detroit auto show, what caught his eye wasn't the roster of new Toyotas but a very familiar red race car.

The Toyota Motor Corp. name was clearly emblazoned on the side of the car. But there was no doubt: This was the machine that had been powered by Honda engines and serviced by Honda engineers, until just a year ago. It was the same machine used by race-team owner Chip Ganassi -- under the Honda Motor Co. flag -- before he orchestrated a sensational defection last year and named Toyota as his new engine supplier.

The Toyota display did tout the Ganassi team's four racing championships. What it didn't mention was that Honda was associated with all of those wins. Astounded, a fuming Mr. Yoshino had to be restrained by his subordinates as he began looking around for Toyota's president, Fujio Cho.

....

Of all Toyota's attacks, what infuriates Honda executives most is the way its rival has outfoxed them on the race circuit. Toyota began racing in America's CART (Championship Auto Racing Teams) series in 1996, its first foray into the top echelon of American motor sports. One key objective, says Tsutomu Tomita, the Toyota director in charge of racing, is to gain the kind of youthful image that has helped Honda so powerfully. Yet, for their first four years, Toyota-powered engines conked out race after race, blowing the engines, spewing smoke, spilling oil and sometimes dropping broken parts on the track, interrupting the races. Drivers and their teams complained Toyota engines were a danger to their safety and told Toyota to put diapers on its engines so that its cars wouldn't spill on the racetrack. The board that runs the sport told Toyota to go back to the drawing boards and retest its powertrains. Spectators moaned Toyota was making the race boring.

Once a laughingstock, this year Toyota engines suddenly began shining. In June a Toyota-powered car won a race in Milwaukee, giving Toyota its first victory in 78 races. Toyota's Mr. Tomita says that the company came up with several modifications in engine technology. After 17 races this season, Toyota now ranks as the third engine supplier behind Ford and Honda.

Honda concedes that improved engines have helped Toyota on the racetrack. But it also says Toyota got a huge boost from the new team of champion drivers it stole from Honda: the team owned by Chip Ganassi, which racked up 30 wins in a total of 72 races with Honda engines from 1996 to 1999. Mr. Ganassi says he received compensation in the range of "$3 to $5 million" for switching to Toyota -- an unusual development in the low-key and generally small-bucks CART world. Toyota's Mr. Tomita confirms that Toyota paid Mr. Ganassi but won't specify details. Mr. Ganassi says that he felt the future is more secure with Toyota as an engine supplier. "Comparatively speaking, Honda just doesn't have the resources that Toyota has," he says.

Once the Ganassi team began using its engines, Toyota quickly launched a TV ad campaign that irritated Honda. Like the Detroit auto show display, Toyota billed the Ganassi team as its own four-time CART champion team, without mentioning that all those four times the team was driving Honda- powered machines. "The ads are absolutely misleading; we would never resort to a stunt like that," says Mr. Fukui. "We have pride."

As for the IRL-spec CART racing. What happened was Toyota really was not doing so well in the CART league (still behind Ford and Honda) and influnced CART management to adapt a single engine spec based on the larger displacement IRL-specs. CART ruled in favor for this, so Honda and Ford, whom were recognizable CART championship sponsors, disagreed with the Toyota influenced spec changes and will fold their ties with CART starting in 2003. Here's a copy and paste of an article I found on circle racing online:

TOYOTA TO LEAVE CART?
Toyota announced Sept. 27th it plans to only make one engine formula in 2003, a normally aspirated 3.5 L engine as will be contested in the IRL. Toyota stated it needed to make a decision for business reasons in the absence of CART's future engine rules, requiring two years notice based on the engine stability agreement. The engine manufacturers have been discussing the new rules package for a number of years (since 1997) which include a 1.8 L turbocharged engine or a 3-or-more L normally aspirated engine. Honda has been opposed to a low tech engine (normally aspirated) but an agreement was expected earlier this summer until the new spacer pop-off valve was imposed (see Mary Mendez' column in CRO, CART Wheels).

Toyota indicated they would consider competing in CART in 2003 if it made sound business sense. The teams currently supplied by Toyota are Target Chip Ganassi, Patrick, Newman/Haas, Walker and PacWest Racing. Not only could Toyota's absence generate an engine supply crisis in the series but it also means a large loss of sponsorship to the teams and advertising promotion for CART.

I also must add, Ganassi's team never won a CART championship with a Toyota motor. Honda won the past 6 CART championship (4 was with Ganassi's team). And Toyota has never won a CART championship.

[98CoupeV6]

Thank you kaz

There is also more but I cannot remember it. I remembered the Ganassi thing but not perfectly. Guess what he did under Toyota power...absolutely nothing. He fell off the face of the Earth.

[yianni64]

What Kazi said. Not to mention that whole ordeal with Toyota complaining to CART about Honda's like blow off valves been too good, and they changed the whole rules to fit them better.

Oh well, CART screwed themselves over by being Toyota's *****.

[asianautica]

That's quite interesting information. I guess the phrase "money speaks louder than words" are still pretty true. Toyota is just trying too hard to win CART that it makes them the bad guy in that picture. I don't know much about CART or IRL so I can't really make any commect but it's cool to read about it though.

[yianni64]

Originally posted by asianautica
That's quite interesting information. I guess the phrase "money speaks louder than words" are still pretty true. Toyota is just trying too hard to win CART that it makes them the bad guy in that picture. I don't know much about CART or IRL so I can't really make any commect but it's cool to read about it though.

I respect Ford racing a lot more than I do Toyota. Many reasons.