Nissan buying Hybrid technology from Toyota

[Troopa-R]

Originally posted by 02RSXTYPES Gonna hafta take issue to this. Only recently has Infiniti had some reputable cars... I disagree. I feel that Infiniti's starting lineup, with the original Q45 and the J30 was pretty damn good. They were sporty, stylish, and luxurious. They just didn't sell as well as Lexus, and so then Nissan took Infiniti on that decade long fiasco chasing Lexus with boring cars and no soul.

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[zishan]

what I dont understand is why nissan is buying this technology from toyota. I mean nissan allready has a hybrid car in japan called the "Tino hybrid". Who knows...maybe its not as good as the prius or insight.

[yianni64]

Originally posted by Eternal RSXness


I disagree. I feel that Infiniti's starting lineup, with the original Q45 and the J30 was pretty damn good. They were sporty, stylish, and luxurious. They just didn't sell as well as Lexus, and so then Nissan took Infiniti on that decade long fiasco chasing Lexus with boring cars and no soul.

The Lexus lineup does not excite me at all. They are very much catering to an older demographic.

[asianautica]

But the older demographic are the one that have the $$ to by these luxury cars.

[yianni64]

Originally posted by asianautica
But the older demographic are the one that have the $$ to by these luxury cars.

The S-Class and LS430's, yes maybe. But the 325i's and the A4's, no. So Acura has cars from 20-40k, where people in their 30's can afford.

But the Lexus name is worth its weight in gold. My friend mom bought a RX300 over the MDX, even though she said herself she like the MDX a lot more. Why did she buy the RX300? She wanted a Lexus, not an Acura.

[asianautica]

hehhe, I know exactly how that works. My mom is the same way. She's says she wants Benz and Lexus because of the name, not because she knows everything about it and she knows that it's the best for what she wants. The name worth alot when it comes to people who don't know much about cars.

[integboi220]

Originally posted by asianautica
hehhe, I know exactly how that works. My mom is the same way. She's says she wants Benz and Lexus because of the name, not because she knows everything about it and she knows that it's the best for what she wants. The name worth alot when it comes to people who don't know much about cars.

with that in mind do u think the name of acura will ever be up there with MB, BMW, and Lexus? i think acura at the moment is along the lines of Audi

[yianni64]

Originally posted by integboi220


with that in mind do u think the name of acura will ever be up there with MB, BMW, and Lexus? i think acura at the moment is along the lines of Audi

It's all about the flagship. Acura is lacking one.

[integboi220]

Originally posted by yianni64



It's all about the flagship. Acura is lacking one.

i think ur right lexus before wasn't seen that luxurious before but with the LS430 and SC430 it really boost its image up...now would a RL along the lines of LS430 help acura that much?

[yianni64]

Originally posted by integboi220


i think ur right lexus before wasn't seen that luxurious before but with the LS430 and SC430 it really boost its image up...now would a RL along the lines of LS430 help acura that much?

The LS400 has always been in Lexus' lineup. And as for the SC430, the NSX is better than it. Yes people like the oo-aah of the folding hartop. Also, 90% of people Ive seen in a SC430 are 50+ year old men with white hair, and their wives.

Anyways, a high end flagship is the only thing that can raise Acura's image.

[integboi220]

Originally posted by yianni64


The LS400 has always been in Lexus' lineup. And as for the SC430, the NSX is better than it. Yes people like the oo-aah of the folding hartop. Also, 90% of people Ive seen in a SC430 are 50+ year old men with white hair, and their wives.

Anyways, a high end flagship is the only thing that can raise Acura's image.

yea i know the LS400 has always been in the lexus line up but it seems LS430 has more of oh **** factor

[JaydeeEmzOwnzYo]

IMO any lexus vehicle is nicer than any Acura... please no flames, my opinion. Acura to me has always been a just a "nicer" honda, due to the fact that they arent much more expensive, but that there arent that many "luxury features" like auto sensing wipers, etc.... that you will find on expensive luxury cars like MB and lexus. For the most part, lexus's are more expensive than Acuras, and i would be willing to pay that extra difference if i wanted one. In my eyes, Acuras are for people want a wannabe luxury car at a budget price. A TL is a fancy accord that only costs a few $k more. The RL is nothing... its almost like a bigger TL with just less HP than a TL-s. If Acura truly wants to compete with MB, lexus, BMW etc.... they need to offer a more expensive 4 door luxury sedan with all the features + the power, especially since hondas new accord has 240hp, even more than the $20k more RL- which is kind of ridiculous. There is definately a difference between todays new Toyotas & Lexus's both in features and especially price, which IMO keeps them more separate then what Honda does with Acura. I think they need to boost up the Acura line, to keep them farther away from the Honda lineup.

This is my opinion, you do not have to agree with me

Mike

[integboi220]

yea i agree with u...i still love acuras tho...since the accord has a lot of nice features more than the TL the next TL should be higher up than the accords which we might see those nice stuff thats on MB and such...but the RL should have stuff u dun really even need like massaging heated seats just to boost the image of the car up

[kazi]

Originally posted by JaydeeEmzOwnzYo

For a "new" member, you do like to speak so highly of Toyota and lowly of Honda. All of your posts on N&R has been "Toyota does better at this" and included some form of Toyota propaganda and Honda nitpicking.

Acura to me has always been a just a "nicer" honda, due to the fact that they arent much more expensive. For the most part, lexus's are more expensive than Acuras, and i would be willing to pay that extra difference if i wanted one. In my eyes, Acuras are for people want a wannabe luxury car at a budget price. A TL is a fancy accord that only costs a few $k more.

Any entry-level luxury car is going to be 'wannabe'. I wouldn't call the premium you pay for a TL 'budget'. It's price is not cheap. It's more like a valued price. The way you put the TL as a fancy Accord is misleading. Yes, it shares a streched platform from the Accord, but it does not use the same powertrain to its mainstream siblings like other bridge models like the ES300, A4, and I35. In fact, with the ES300 and I35, they're more fitting to the word fancy because they're basically Camry and Maxima with near identical motor and transmissions, very similar dimensional specs and mostly cosmetic changes. And you pay a few thousands more for those near identical cars just for name!!!

At least in the TL, you get a larger car than the Accord, a bigger displacement, a manumatic 5spd transmission, more options, and a Type-S higher output engine option. You couldn't get a navi option in below $40k Lexus or Infiniti before the TL came out with it.

There is definately a difference between todays new Toyotas & Lexus's both in features and especially price, which IMO keeps them more separate then what Honda does with Acura. I think they need to boost up the Acura line, to keep them farther away from the Honda lineup.

Look at VW/Audi. Both brand share the A3 and A4 platform and has been sucessful. I think there's enough difference between the Accord and TL to separate the brands. The TSX will be the bridge that connects the two brand together, like what VW has done with the Passat and A4. The sucess of separating the perception of the brands depends more on marketing.

Lexus will always carry its crowd of followers, and rightfully so. They have some nice cars, but don't discount Acura. Acura takes a different route and focuses on value and performance. Lexus has nothing to compare to the TL Type-S models. The IS300 is close, but its doesn't quiet have the performance or value of the TL-S. IMO, the MDX is hands down better than the RX300. And vice versa, there's models that Acura doesn't have to compare to Lexus or Infiniti.

Basically, through all this, you've gone way off tangent of the original discusion that Honda was and is an underdog and was the pioneer of Japanese premium brands in automobile in the USA market and turned it into a discussion of Lexus vs Acura and a propaganda for Toyota and Lexus, which was totally pointless.

[DVPGSR]

Kazi,

That has to be one of the most polite, sincere, and truthfull rebuttals I have seen yet!

[asianautica]

Originally posted by integboi220


with that in mind do u think the name of acura will ever be up there with MB, BMW, and Lexus? i think acura at the moment is along the lines of Audi

Probably not for awhile. Yianni is right, it's all about the flag ship. People like my mom think the car is good because there's some super rich guy who has a lexus that cost alot. It's all in the image and Acura doesn't have very expensive car to have an expensive image.

[kazi]

Originally posted by asianautica


Probably not for awhile. Yianni is right, it's all about the flag ship. People like my mom think the car is good because there's some super rich guy who has a lexus that cost alot. It's all in the image and Acura doesn't have very expensive car to have an expensive image.

That is very true. Acura does lack a competitive flagship sedan. But, Lexus and Infiniti doesn't have a supercar like the NSX. Even at its age, the NSX is does provide a nice icon of what Acura is. Which helps Acura's image tied with more sport than luxury. Have also noticed a lot of 'moms' eye Lexus more? Maybe because females focus on plush over sport/performance?

[asianautica]

Originally posted by kazi


That is very true. Acura does lack a competitive flagship sedan. Even with its age, Lexus and Infiniti doesn't have a supercar like the NSX. Which helps Acura's image tied with more sport than luxury. Have also noticed a lot of 'moms' eye Lexus more? Maybe because females focus on plush over sport/performance?

I think the NSX stands alone. There's really no connection between the NSX and the rest of the Acura line. NSX is an amazing sport car in many ways while the rest of the acura like like sporty luxury.
Even with its age? Those 2 are 5 years younger than Acura. But I think they didn't bring over their super car yet because they don't feel like they need to yet. But they are bringing it over according to R&T. Toyota is bringing over a V10 supercar costing about $150k and Nissan is bringing over the GT-R with about 450 HP & still AWD.
Acura is looking at the NSX for performance image while Lexus and infiniti is just trying to improve all their cars to match the image they want to project.

[kazi]

Sorry, I edited my last post to clarify that I meant the NSX is aged, not Lexus/Infiniti.

I think the NSX has plenty of connection with the rest of the Acura line and somewhat Honda. The NSX's engine is basically used in other Honda products. The NSX's VTEC system was trickled down to all of Honda's line.

But the point was, a flagship or an icon model represents a lot on the preception of a brand. A Lexus' flagship LS430 and SC430 model really focuses on luxury and less on sport. Infiniti's flagship Q45 focuses on techno gadget stuff and comtemporary style. Acura has the NSX as an icon and flagship to represents the reliability and performance of its brand. Just like how your mother sees the Lexus brand because of her perception on the flagship model.

[DVPGSR]

Originally posted by asianautica


I think the NSX stands alone. There's really no connection between the NSX and the rest of the Acura line. NSX is an amazing sport car in many ways while the rest of the acura like like sporty luxury.
Even with its age? Those 2 are 5 years younger than Acura. But I think they didn't bring over their super car yet because they don't feel like they need to yet. But they are bringing it over according to R&T. Toyota is bringing over a V10 supercar costing about $150k and Nissan is bringing over the GT-R with about 450 HP & still AWD.
Acura is looking at the NSX for performance image while Lexus and infiniti is just trying to improve all their cars to match the image they want to project.

You are correct in saying that the NSX stands alone...as the only Japanese supercar. And the connection between the NSX and the rest of the Acura lineup is very evident. The NSX is built out of the technology used in Honda's race cars that has been adapted to fit a real life production vehicle. This technology used in the NSX has then been adapted to the rest of the Acura lineup. Where do you think the sport come from?

Sure Infiniti and and Lexus are not as old as Acura, but Nissan(Datsun) and Toyota have been around longer than Honda...why did those two not produce a car similar to the NSX, afterall the NSX is a Honda everywhere else in the world, except for Canada. And the NSX is 13? years old and neither Nissan or Toyota have a car that can match it in overall build quality.

What image is Infiniti and Lexus trying to project? Honda/Acura was born out of a motorcyle racing company that moved onto car racing and production cars. Their cars are still built upon that technology. Don't get me wrong though in the fact that both Nissan(Infiniti) and Toyota(Lexus) make great cars, but they are built in a different manner from Honda(Acura).

[asianautica]

I see your point in the connection between the NSX and the rest of the line up. I'm just trying to say it takes more than an engine to link two cars together. The NSX is hand built on a platform that's not shared w/ any other which is MR. Technology trickles down starting with the NSX, that's true, I'm not denying that. VTEC started w/ the NSX. I'm just saying you look at the NSX and you see a piece of art and a nicely hand crafted super car. While you look at the rest of the Acura line, all you see is another sport luxury sedan/coupe. If you look at company like Benz and BMW, their AMG and M devision brings the performance image to the brand, yet their AMG and M model is based from a production car. That's why I say the NSX doesn't have much connection with the rest of the line up.

The Q45 is a disappointment in sales, no doubt about that but it's infinity flagship and it's their icon car. It stands for performance/HP, and technology/gadgets. I don't know if the M45 will be a money loser or not because it's just based off a car that's been built in japan for the last 3 or 4 years so it doesn't cost them any in the R&D part, unlike the Q45. Also, it's quite hard to predict how well it'll do. If you just look at the fact, the M45 cost about the same as the RL and the GS300 but it has a V8 with almost all the luxury of the Q45. So only time will tell whether it'll be a disappointment like the Q45 or not.

The NSX is here in the US as Acura. Do you think people would buy a $90k honda? Probably not but they would buy $90k acura. People probably wouldn't buy a $90k Nissan or Toyota either but they would buy a $90k Infiniti and Lexus. Nissan and Toyota do have similar cars to the NSX, which is the Supra and the Skyline. The skyline was a Japan only car. The supra was marketed differently. If you look at performance, the Supra is quite similar to the NSX but the Supra was massed produced and Toyota made profit from it. When they stop making profit from it, they discontinue it. I think Acura has always been loosing money on every NSX they sell.

Infiniti was lost most of its year trying to be like Lexus. Lexus tries to project a Japanese version of Benz. Now, Infiniti is trying to project a Japanese version of BMW. I do agree with you that Nissan/Toyota/Honda all build their car on different philosophy and image.

Sorry for the long post.

[DVPGSR]

AN,

No need to appologize for a long post, sometimes they are needed and it was well written. The only thing I disagree on thought is whether or not someone would buy a $90K Honda or Acura, and that Nissan and Infiniti had cars that were of the same caliber as the NSX.

I for one don't care what the NSX is called or who the company is that it is sold under. The NSX is a great car that would have sold under the Honda name just as well as under the Acura name. When a car is built as well as the NSX it does not matter what you call it.

Also the Supra was a mass produced production car on an automated assembly line...not sure about the Skyline but doesn't the Skyline share its frame with another Nissan? Sorry I am not real familiar with the Skyline. But for arguments sake I will only use the Supra. While the Supra did have similar or better performance numbers over the NSX you cannot beat the build quality of the NSX. The whole thing is on a lightweight aluminum frame and is handbuilt...Toyota cannot say that about the Supra. I don't look at the Supra in the same light as the NSX.

[asianautica]

The reason why I say most people would not buy $90k Honda is not because the car would be bad under Honda name plate but rather the service. I'm not too sure about Acura dealer vs Honda dealer, but my experience w/ Infiniti dealer is 100X better than Nissan dealer. Infiniti sales tactic as well as many other luxury brand are alot more relax and give the buyer alot more respect. I feel alot more comfortable there and I'm not being haggle (sp?) for the sale. Also service is another story. Nissan as well as I assume Honda and Toyota would not just give you a loner car. While Acura, Inifiniti and many other luxury company would give you a loaner car when you bring your car in for a service. It's those little stuff that make a person willing to put down $90k for a car.

About the Supra, the ultimate goal is quite similar to the NSX. Have a really fast sport car. The execution is quite different though. In term of performance they're the same, but Toyota want a mass produced car that can make them profit as well as give them a performance image. While the NSX is hand built for quality. It also give Acura a performance image but it doesn't not bring in profit like the Supra did as well as not mass produced. Maybe that's one of the reason why NSX is still around while Supra isn't. Lets say you loose a few grand per car you sell, since the NSX only sell about 200 cars a year, Honda can handle those loses for the image. While mass produced cars like Supra, RX-7 and Z can't because with the same loses per car, it's too great of a lose total when they sell thousands of those cars.

My point about Skyline and Supra were that they are very fast sport car and they're in the same league performance wise to the NSX. The famous Skyline GT-R share its frame with the regular skyline which is what the G35 replaced. In Japan, the G35 is called the Skyline. However, the chasis is the only thing that's the same between the regular Skyline and the GT-R. From now on, the GT-R will have it's own name and it's no longer a Skyline GT-R, just GT-R.

I personally see the NSX, RX-7, Skyline, and Supra under the same group. I.E. top performance from the respective company.

[98CoupeV6]

Very, very good discussion guys. I really agree with everyone here, kazi, AN, and Viggen.

Viggen, you're right bro, the NSX is truly an automotive marvel. If it weren't for the NSX, do you think you could use a Porsche 996 Turbo as a daily driver? Or even think of doing it with a Ferrari 360? I think not. The change from the 993 to 996 interior is the biggest step in Porsche history, all due to the NSX IMO. Now it has some luxury.

AN, I agree with everything you said, especially about the Q45/M45. I predict it will sell well because, as you said, it is the Q luxury and performance for less. Of course, maybe a reason the Q doesn't sell is not because it is inferior, but because it is an Infiniti? However, I take issue with the skyline/Supra thing. The Skyline and Supra are modern muscle cars. The NSX has no equal...it was never about horsepower, it was about refinement, handling, styling, and making a STATEMENT. A Statement that the HMC is the best engine manufacturer in the world and has quality, refinement, and style to match it.

I'm not gonna reply to any previous posts because they've all been beat to death, but kazi, that was one of the best posts I've ever read

[iNteGraz92]

Originally posted by asianautica
If you just look at the fact, the M45 cost about the same as the RL and the GS300 but it has a V8 with almost all the luxury of the Q45. So only time will tell whether it'll be a disappointment like the Q45 or not.

since the m45 is a new model and the RL and gs300 are pretty old, can we wait and see what the next RL and gs will offer?

[asianautica]

Originally posted by 02RSXTYPES
AN, I agree with everything you said, especially about the Q45/M45. I predict it will sell well because, as you said, it is the Q luxury and performance for less. Of course, maybe a reason the Q doesn't sell is not because it is inferior, but because it is an Infiniti? However, I take issue with the skyline/Supra thing. The Skyline and Supra are modern muscle cars. The NSX has no equal...it was never about horsepower, it was about refinement, handling, styling, and making a STATEMENT. A Statement that the HMC is the best engine manufacturer in the world and has quality, refinement, and style to match it.

You're probably right, Infiniti doesn't know how to market the Q45. They started advertising it when it came out so the sale were ok, but then they just stopped all together and the sales starts falling.

I don't agree with you about the Skyline and Supra statement though. I don't think they are modern muscle cars at all. All three are 6 cylinders. Skyline is a 2.6L, Supra is 3.0L (?), and NSX is 3.2L. So how can you say the other two are modern muscle cars? NSX has the largest displacement and NSX is the newest out of the three. Who ever said it's about HP anyways, all three are similar in HP and their performance are similar as well. The Skyline and Supra are no handling slouch either. The Skyline has AWD w/ 4 wheel steering. The Skyline is a marval of engineering and design for Nissan and same goes for the Supra. Toyota and Nissan can say the same about their car as well and their statement is just as valid. The Skyline and Supra engine can output 600HP on stock internal with no problem. Wouldn't you say that's an engineering marvel? Both engine after strengthening can also reach 1000HP with some effort. All that from an engine that's 3L or less. I say that's pretty amazing to me. They also rev pretty high as well. Not sure what the supra red like is at but I think the Skyline red line is 8000+ RPM. Styling is quite subjective. Many people love the look of the Skyline and the Supra. Those two car can pack 4 people and still haul a$$.

[asianautica]

Originally posted by iNteGraz92

since the m45 is a new model and the RL and gs300 are pretty old, can we wait and see what the next RL and gs will offer?

I know what they won't be offering. A 300+HP V8. Honda doesn't have a V8 and Lexus already have a V8 GS430 so it won't make the GS300 a V8. Basically, the M45 is the GS430 competitor with the GS300 price. The car itself is great, but whether Infiniti can market it or not is a different story.

[98CoupeV6]

Originally posted by asianautica
I don't agree with you about the Skyline and Supra statement though. I don't think they are modern muscle cars at all. All three are 6 cylinders. Skyline is a 2.6L, Supra is 3.0L (?), and NSX is 3.2L. So how can you say the other two are modern muscle cars? NSX has the largest displacement and NSX is the newest out of the three. Who ever said it's about HP anyways, all three are similar in HP and their performance are similar as well. The Skyline and Supra are no handling slouch either. The Skyline has AWD w/ 4 wheel steering. The Skyline is a marval of engineering and design for Nissan and same goes for the Supra. Toyota and Nissan can say the same about their car as well and their statement is just as valid. The Skyline and Supra engine can output 600HP on stock internal with no problem. Wouldn't you say that's an engineering marvel? Both engine after strengthening can also reach 1000HP with some effort. All that from an engine that's 3L or less. I say that's pretty amazing to me. They also rev pretty high as well. Not sure what the supra red like is at but I think the Skyline red line is 8000+ RPM. Styling is quite subjective. Many people love the look of the Skyline and the Supra. Those two car can pack 4 people and still haul a$$.

You misunderstood my point entirely. The Supra and Skyline are based on power (which has nothing to do with engine displacement), and the NSX is built on finesse.

It all depends on what you consider a marvel, but the Supra and Skyline never made a very big impact in Stuttgart or Modena. They certainly didn't get memos saying that maybe there was another way this time around.

Pure power is not impressive to me. You just contradicted yourself saying they aren't muscle cars when you talk about how many horsies their intrnals can take. I never said they were handling slouches. A new Skyline would hand an NSX its ass on the track. But this is a 12 year old NSX. BTW, all 3 are similiar in horsepower because of Japan's gentleman's agreement. You and I both know the newer skylines pack far more than 290 horsepower and they come from the factory made to be modified.

We both have different opinions on 3 very different cars, no point in typing any more since we both understand each other.

[asianautica]

Since we understand each other, then it's all cool. My statement about the horsies was just to prove that they're engineering marvel, so much power from such a small engine. My definition of muscle cars are large displacement V8s but I guess yours is different. It's call cool. To me these debate are fun even if it doesn't go anywhere. It something to pass time with.

[98CoupeV6]

Originally posted by asianautica
Since we understand each other, then it's all cool. My statement about the horsies was just to prove that they're engineering marvel, so much power from such a small engine. My definition of muscle cars are large displacement V8s but I guess yours is different. It's call cool. To me these debate are fun even if it doesn't go anywhere. It something to pass time with.

Hell yes, it's alot of fun, but it gets to the point where you can only drive your point in so much

Just for kicks, my definition of a muscle car is anything that puts horsepower over everything else. Engine displacement doesn't matter to me.

BTW, you've been making some really good posts, keep it up bro