Best turbo setup for a B18B?(ls motor)
what in your opinion is the best turbo setup/bang for its buck for a 95 integra LS motor?
like which company and why?
what turbo setup do you have on your car and is it good?
1999 Trans AM ---fs
1995 M3---totalled rip
1999 Integra ---sold
Originally Posted by Nightshade
Originally Posted by ls_101
do you own this? why do you belive this is such a great setup?
i heard GREDDY is amazing.. but then again they are hellofa expensive :/
i got about a $3000 budget... help ppl plz
i was wondering the same thing as this guy. basically, im more concerned with which turbos are basically the best suited for the ls engine. (like which trim and a/r ratio)
95 dc4- b18b w/ gsr tranny: 99+ front and back conversion, type r yellow paint, type r lip, type r spoiler, gsr blades, kumho ecsta supra 712's 205/50/15, generic intake, dc sports stainless header, greddy evo exhaust, axxis metal master brake pads, s2k shift knob
Rev Hard and Drag are both good kits. Ive also seen people making some good power with the Spark kits w/ITS turbos.
I would skip Greddy....no point in paying that much for a small turbo, no intercooler and half ass fuel management. The only benefit to the Greddy kit is an incredibly easy installation, and SMOG legality if you dont add an IC.
Drag comes with a nice kit...efficient Spearco IC, nice piping, nice sized T3/T04...the only downside is the manifold, which has the wastegate placed over one runner, which can sometimes cause it to not hold boost at high RPMs (ie creep). Some people experience this with less backpressure (ie 3" exhaust) and some people never see it. When I was running open DP, I CERTAINLY saw insane creeping with the Drag mani. The Deltagate also isnt the best if you plan to keep the Drag mani...you'll want to upgrade to a Tial.
RH is also nice...great manifold, excellent turbos (some kits come with Precisions if you specify...sc34's if I remember right). Turbosmart WGs are money as well. The only downside is the piping and the Vortech BOV which some people have expressed displeasure with.
Or you could go custom, like importparts new make your own turbokit feature. There's other kits that are better and worse, but these are the top kits in the "affordable" range IMO.
I talk Before I think
Originally Posted by newgsrdriver
what kind of numbers were you putting down with the Drag kit?(if i understood right) did you like the kit and when did it hit full boost?
what are these said Spark Kits? never heard of them
Their kits now come with a Innovative T3/T04e 60trim Stage III...nice turbo. Drags come with a Turbonetics T3/T04e 54 Trim Stage III if I remember right. The Innovative should flow better up top but take a bit longer to spool. Probably not even noticeable difference in spooltime. Lag isnt a big deal with either kit.
Here is my dyno (sorry its small, 247/174@7PSI):
Im not sure exactly where I reach full boost but you can get an idea from the dyno. Its quick enough that I dont notice, it just picks up and hauls. Again, lag is something thats totally blown out of proportion, I wouldnt consider it with any of the turbos that comes with these kits. Those #'s are basically a Drag kit, 2.5" Testpipe, 60mm exhaust w/chambered muffler (nice restriction, but Im not ready to ditch it yet :P), Hondata S200B, DSM 450's and good tuning.
I hate 2003 Noobs.
I'd skip the spark kit or at least replace the manifold. They are very prone to boost spike.
I believe the manifolds have 2 versions...the newer ones use thicker steel, although I'd still brace it for sure. Have you run into boost creep with the Spark mani? I havent heard of any issues with creep....the wastegate flange completely falling off, yes, but creep no :P
The thing that bugs me about the Spark kits is that its so hyped directly from the salespeople moreso than from the public. I dont see too many non-biased non-affiliated people with these kits putting up good numbers.
I too would rank the Spark kit below the Drag/RH, but I have seen promising #'s from them recently (probably due to that nice peak flow from the ITS turbo).
Originally Posted by KKTPP
my friend has it on his gsr, another friend bought it for his rsx-s, i dont have it, im piecing my own together, everything i want, not what comes in a kit, greddy is to expensive, and u have to buy the ic seperate, but the rev hard is a good kit
1999 Trans AM ---fs
1995 M3---totalled rip
1999 Integra ---sold
Originally Posted by Nightshade
where should i look into purchasing a rev hard or a drag kit?
anyone know any good priced online sites?
or anyone here know good performance shops i can call? im in toronto canada but im sure they can ship it to me..
monday im gonna go to the local shops and ask about those two kits
thanx a bunch!
ps. wtf is creep?
The key with getting any turbo kit to run right is the ability to dial in the fuel. You can probably get the parts themselves for under 3 grand, but you're going to have to spend a bit more than that if you want everything that is going to allow you to strap the car on a dyno and dial it in.
Just as an example, I used the "build your own kit" thing on importparts.com and pieced together the following:
- DRAG cast manifold
- DRAG 2.5" downpipe
- DRAG air filter kit
- DRAG piping kit
- Turbonetics T3/TO4E turbo
- Precision "350 hp" intercooler
- TurboXS RFL blow off valve
- Tial 38 mm wastegate
- misc hardware bolts, fittings, etc
- Stainless oil feed & return with fittings
- RC 440 cc/min injectors
- Walbro 255 lph in-tank pump
- Hondata S200B
Total is $3470 plus shipping, and figure on spending some more money on dyno time to have the Hondata tuned in.
You could get under your budget by skipping the Hondata and injectors, and instead running an FMU and MAP sensor bypass, but that's a rather inelegant solution which will be neither as reliable as the same turbo kit tuned with a Hondata nor make as much power as the same turbo kit tuned with a Hondata.
Originally Posted by KKTPP
ty very much!
however i got one more question.. im pricing out installation and minor engine rebuild between 3 shops.. some of them are saying i should do this.. then that.. where the other guy sez its not necessary to ie. bore out piston walls and put in bigger pistons... so its either they are fukin with me and want more money? or some know more then others.. grrr
my engine has 200,000km on it.. but it still runs strong.. i did a compression test and everything is perfect
can someone plz name me the major engine mods i HAVE to do in order to run a turbo.. because i know i CAN spend another 3000 on just the engine so it will be MOST reliable... however i dont have to?
btw for those who will bitch for me to search this shit by myself.. i have.. and i have been to shops.. but like i said.. im getting mixed info which will result in me spending either another 3000 or not.. :/
I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that machine shops will try and sell you an engine build.
Resleeving the motor, boring it out, running full forged internals, etc, can be necessary depending on how much power you're trying to make.
So, that said, how much power are you trying to make?
well i want to run mid to high 13's...
i was told if i have about 200-220whp i should be good
You should realize your goals with either the Drag/RH kit, a testpipe/HF cat and 60mm+ exhaust and decent driving on a completely stock healthy motor.
Yeah, as long as your motor checks out good on a compression/leakdown test and any and all maintenance items have been taken care of, bolting on a turbo should be relatively non-threatening to its life.
You'll also probably want to upgrade to a stronger clutch, and this would probably be a decent point to make sure that your tires, suspension and brakes are up to snuff.
What is it with you people wanting T3/T4 setups to run 7 PSI on a 1.8 motor? It's a complete waste of a turbo. The main reason to upgrade to a larger turbo is to run high boost more efficiently. If you are only going to be running like 7-10 PSI then I'd suggest going custom and using a T-25 turbo. They are small so they spool up very fast, and they would put out more than enough air for a honda motor. A 60 trim turbo would be laggy as hell, especially on a torque limited b18 motor. Before deciding on a turbo take a look at it's compressor map to see at what PSI it's peak efficiency range is. I'm running a ported 14b (the stock turbo from a 1G manual eclipse / talon) on my '97 GS-T and with the usual supporting mods I'm putting down somewhere around 270 at the crank @ 17 PSI. This is with a 7.8:1 compression ratio. I know it sounds cool to say "I've got a 60 trim T3/T4 blah blah watch me run 13s." Unless you are going to put some major work into your bottom end to reinforce it and lower the compression ratio so you can run some real boost, stick with a smaller turbo. If I got a T3/T4 60 trim turbo and stuck it on my car I'd shoot to run at least 25 PSI on pump gas because that's what getting a bigger turbo is all about - running more boost.
The simple answer: that's what comes in the more common turbo kits out there.
Originally Posted by AXiS
However there is a bit more of a logical reason. If you plug in some numbers into a turbo calculator, an LS motor running 7 psi of boost (i.e. pressure ratio of 1.5) at redline will flow about 21 air-lbs per min. Take a gander at this compressor map if you will, and see where those numbers put you.
Indeed, it will put you smack dab in the middle, which if you squint is 78% compressor efficiency. That's a mighty fine number to be at.
Last edited by MrFatbooty; 04-19-04 at 01:23 PM.
Almost forgot to add:
The reason the typical Honda setups are T3/T4 instead of a full T4 is precisely because they involve relatively low boost and non-stratospheric horsepower numbers. It gives reasonable spool-up and transient response while still maximizing compressor efficiency.
I mean, if you really wanted you could run something like a Garrett GT28R but that would be rather pricey just to bolt on to an LS motor.
What is the average spool time on a b18b utilizing a t3/t4 normally? I still think that unless the car is going to be for drag only a smaller, faster spooling turbo would be more enjoyable than a larger, more laggy one. One advantage to running a larger turbo at a lower PSI would be that one can sometimes get away with not using an intercooler, so I guess that could be considered a plus.
Originally Posted by MrFatbooty
You're right, the high compressor efficiency would make running without an intercooler a reasonably workable proposition--but most kits out there have an intercooler and I'm of the opinion that it's still good to have one.
Here's a dyno of an LS with a Drag turbo kit that uses a T3/TO4E 54 trim.
Spool time could definitely be better, but this car is only having boost limited by the wastegate spring. The wastegate used in this kit is a Turbonetics Deltagate which can really be helped by using a boost controller to keep the boost/vacuum signal off the spring.
As for a smaller turbo, there are some kits out there that come with a T25 but they're kind of wimpy on the top end. They're potentially more responsive but they give up a lot of power potential to the T3/TO4E 54.
Ideally one would want to run a Garrett GT28RS which should reach full boost by 3000 rpm and provide similar or better peak efficiency to the T3/TO4E 54--but it costs $1200.
wtf.. so i went to one of my last performance shops on my list for my quoting..
this guy wants about 4000 canadian for a greddy turbo kit(he says drag kits and the others dont fit well.. and always require lots of mods)
he wants about $800 canadian for the installation
$1000 canadian for a dyno tuning
and he sez my engine will almost for sure blow up right away since it has 200,000 km on it(even tho i did a compression test and its fine)
wtf.. i think im gonna go to the other shops where they are more optimistic about my car hehe ANNNND hellofalot cheaper!
"Ideally one would want to run a Garrett GT28RS which should reach full boost by 3000 rpm and provide similar or better peak efficiency to the T3/TO4E 54--but it costs $1200."
is that JUST the turbo itself? 1200? or the whole kit.
is this a good custom turbo kit/setup for my ls?.. it came off an ls.. so its right for it.. but just wanna know if this person made the right choices and if its worth buying this off him
Thermal 3 inch catback exhaust.
Greddy Td05 18g Turbo Kit with Greddy Blue Box
-Mitsubishi Td05 18g turbocharger
-Greddy Blue Box Fuel Management
Walbro 255 hp fuel pump
Pruven Performance Front Mount intercooler/piping(Huge Spearco Core, and stainless steal piping).
The Kit and everything is complete, and ready to bolt up to a b18b.
how much would you pay for this? i think it all sounds good
Hehe in the DSM world we are used to paying that much for turbos, but if we do we expect to make huge power. Check out http://www.forcedperformance.com for some nice DSM turbos, I'll hopefully one day get one of the FP 30xx series on my car.
Originally Posted by KKTPP
On a built motor running more boost I could probably justify going with a GTxxR turbo--but that's because it's already a big outlay of cash for the motor so might as well go all the way with the best turbo for the job.
hey kk did you go to etdracing?
they are a good shop in the GTA i think etobiko(however you spell it) they wont be so cheap but it will be worth it.
Good job of explaining the benefits of a big turbo on low boost. Its all about efficiency and flow. Also let me add, on my 54 Trim .63a/r T3/T04E, lag aint shit. Its so small its insignificant. And thats a pretty decent sized turbo by DSM standards. Lag is a term thats tossed around a lot, but really shouldnt even be considered with any of the turbos included in kits.
As for that kit above, I wouldnt run the Greddy blue box or the 18g if you want to do things right. Doesnt make sense to run the 18g at all when you have much better options.
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