installing piston rings?

[iceboy]

if i use oem p30 pistons with oem rings, do the rings need to be gapped? I saw that being done here http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewt...r+engine+build

but then noticed he is using aftermarket forged pistons...

input?
thanks!

[mberndt]

No, you don't need to gap them if you bought the OEM stock honda parts.

[Provocateur]

No, you don't need to gap them if you bought the OEM stock honda parts.

Yes, you do.

[iceboy]

so you have to go through all the crap with the feeler gauges and filer and whatnot? all tools i dont have...

[Provocateur]

so you have to go through all the crap with the feeler gauges and filer and whatnot? all tools i dont have...

If you want to avoid problems, I suggest you buy those tools. A feeler gauge is like $6 at any autoparts store and you can file down the rings using a $30 grinder or the ghetto way with a file.

Here is a good site: http://www.laskeyracing.com/shop/ringgap.htm

[dubcac]

No, you don't need to gap them if you bought the OEM stock honda parts.

Not every ring, piston, and cylinder is the same. You absolutely should check the ring gap.

[iceboy]

yeah thanks for the info schmoo...the next question is...

i see that they use a formula for finding the gap needed, but they use one for boosted cars...where can i find one for non boosted?

[Provocateur]

The OEM specs are as follows:

First ring: .20-.35 mm
Second ring: .40-.55 mm
Oil ring: .20-.50 mm

[mberndt]

Yes, you do.

Maybe I'm confused on what you mean by "gapping"
To me, gapping is the process of filing the piston rings down, so the ends do not contact each other in the hot motor.
I did not gap my rings, I merely checked the oem parts to see if there was an adequate gap between the ends of the ring inside the cylinder.
I recently put new piston rings in along with LS pistons, and I did not gap them, as I used OEM parts. Haynes manual says it must be done on non-oem parts, but I followed the procedure, which states:
put the ring into the cylinder and push it down, so it compresses together. Then measure the gap of the rings inside the cylinder. If it's within tolerance, no gapping is necessary.
As for me, no gapping was necessary. And, now it runs perfect,
that is except for my misfiring problem

[iceboy]

yup thats exactly what im loking for. I just wasnt sure how consistent the rings came from honda. but i guess i should check them just to be safe. Now i jut need to find feeler gauges

[dubcac]

Maybe I'm confused on what you mean by "gapping"
To me, gapping is the process of filing the piston rings down, so the ends do not contact each other in the hot motor.
I did not gap my rings, I merely checked the oem parts to see if there was an adequate gap between the ends of the ring inside the cylinder.
I recently put new piston rings in along with LS pistons, and I did not gap them, as I used OEM parts. Haynes manual says it must be done on non-oem parts, but I followed the procedure, which states:
put the ring into the cylinder and push it down, so it compresses together. Then measure the gap of the rings inside the cylinder. If it's within tolerance, no gapping is necessary.
As for me, no gapping was necessary. And, now it runs perfect,
that is except for my misfiring problem

So do you think EVERY ring that Honda makes is identical? They all are exactly the same size and have no gap? Every cylinder bore is identical?

[mberndt]

So do you think EVERY ring that Honda makes is identical? They all are exactly the same size and have no gap? Every cylinder bore is identical?

What are u talking about?
Did I ever say that every ring honda makes is identical? NO
I did say that if you buy the correct rings for the correct engine, made from Honda, then they only need to be checked as described above and not necessarily gapped.
I got proof, my car works great

[dubcac]

What are u talking about?
Did I ever say that every ring honda makes is identical? NO
I did say that if you buy the correct rings for the correct engine, made from Honda, then they only need to be checked as described above and not necessarily gapped.
I got proof, my car works great

You're not getting what I was saying. Just because you bought the correct rings for the correct engine, that does not mean that they will not need to be gapped. Proof? You had one motor. I've had to gap the OEM rings on every motor I've ever done, because they weren't within spec. Not every ring package is exactly the same. Not every cylinder is exactly the same. Therefore, not every ring will fit perfectly out of the package.

[mberndt]

You're not getting what I was saying. Just because you bought the correct rings for the correct engine, that does not mean that they will not need to be gapped. Proof? You had one motor. I've had to gap the OEM rings on every motor I've ever done, because they weren't within spec. Not every ring package is exactly the same. Not every cylinder is exactly the same. Therefore, not every ring will fit perfectly out of the package.

Yeah I did only do one motor, but I did check my gap and my rings were within spec. Besides, what motors did you have to check this on? Chevy?? If you are referring to "gapping" as the filing of the rings, then I don't agree with you. Yes, not every cylinder is exactly the same, but what do you mean by exactly? you have to define exactly, because nothing is exact, everything has tolerances, which are accounted for when these products are being manufactured. Do you think that they produce rings out of spec?
I do not agree with you... if you have checked the gap of the rings while they are compressed in the cylinder, and they check out ok, then they do not have to be gapped.

[dubcac]

Why do you think they have tolerances? Because not everything is the same. Let me list the motors that I actually had to file the ring to get the correct gap.

B16
GSR
LS
D15

You've only done this on one motor, so you only have one opinion...you don't have much experience. You're crazy if you think that you can go buy 100 packs of rings for a GSR motor and they will all fit every GSR cylinder perfectly with the perfect gap, no filing necessary. There's a reason why Honda created that section of the manual.

[mberndt]

FYI I have much experience, probably more than you do...
Maybe YOU had to file the rings down to the correct gap, but then again maybe YOU didn't measure well enough... How do you KNOW for sure that you didn't file too much away?? Exactly my point...
I didn't have to file my rings, and IMO I stated that I didn't think one has to...
You simply have a different opinion than me, which is just fine...
Nothing is exactly the same size, because you just have to look at it closer for it to be "different"...
My final words are follow the directions, and if the gap is reading too tight, then by all means file it down, but it is not explicitly required that you must file each ring down, just check first, if it's ok, then you don't ned to file anything...

[dubcac]

THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING THE ENTIRE TIME

[AcuraFanatic]

FYI I have much experience, probably more than you do...
Maybe YOU had to file the rings down to the correct gap, but then again maybe YOU didn't measure well enough... How do you KNOW for sure that you didn't file too much away?? Exactly my point...
I didn't have to file my rings, and IMO I stated that I didn't think one has to...
You simply have a different opinion than me, which is just fine...
Nothing is exactly the same size, because you just have to look at it closer for it to be "different"...
My final words are follow the directions, and if the gap is reading too tight, then by all means file it down, but it is not explicitly required that you must file each ring down, just check first, if it's ok, then you don't ned to file anything...

You fail at reading. dubcac said exactly what you stated.

And I wouldn't go ahead and assume that you're more experienced than anybody else on this board.

[mberndt]

You fail at reading. dubcac said exactly what you stated.

And I wouldn't go ahead and assume that you're more experienced than anybody else on this board.

ACTUALLY, I reiterated what I've been saying the whole time...
Dude first asked if the rings NEED to be gapped, and I said NO they don't NEED to be, assuming he has checked his clearances...
THIS is exactly what I did and I have no problems. I did not NEED to gap my rings, understand??
As for your second comment, all I can say is what do you know??
FYI I've been doing this for 6+ years, how about u?
P.S. No hard feelings

[mberndt]

As for AF, LOL maybe u need to take a reading class

Just to let you guys know...
I replaced the rings on my 93 Civic EX this weekend, and I did not have to "gap" my rings...

[89D15CRX]

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OK, I have my D15B2 engine block and I put an A6 head on it. Problem is is that my D15B2 piston rings are shot. I replaced the rings and apparently didn't align them correctly because when I reassembled it, it was still burning oil. I pulled the head and it's at the machine shop. Now all four pistons have oil at the top of them so I narrowed it down to this. My pistons are perfect circumference and my bore size is correct. I have the Haynes manual with a diagram of how to arrange the piston ring gaps. Problem is is that I can barely understand it. To get this straight, the rings that control and contain the oil in the bore are the three lower rings correct? Well, can ANYONE tell me where the two side rail gaps need to be on the piston so that I don't have any oil passing by them? Because this seems to be the problem here. Here is the diagram from the book but it says that C (one of the compression rings) need to be one inch either side of the piston pin centerline. While D (oil ring side rails) need to be on one inch either side of the pin centerline. How should I arrange the oil ring side rails? I'm not stupid just wondering because there are two C's and only one D and the D is in the center of the back of the piston (aligned with the pin centerline). Also, if these aren't aligned correctly, it would allow oil past the pistons and into the combustion chamber right? Please, I'm racking my brain on this and I have one of my pistons with the rings on it sitting right here. ANY help is GREATLY appreciated. I DON'T want this thing to burn oil anymore. It's an old tired engine but when I put it back together it ran AWESOMELY (minus the burning oil).

[1stGenCRXer]

Alright guys. I've been doing this since I was 7 years old [which makes it 18 years], and have built 326 engines, with documentation on each, so how about we quit with the pissing contests?

As for gapping your rings. Yes, you ABSOLUTELY should gap your rings EVERY TIME YOU CHANGE THEM.

Part of gapping your rings is inserting them into the bore for measurement! Obviously, if they're within spec for the cylinder you're going to use it in, you're done! If they're too tight, then you file them, grind them, whatever method of opening up the gap you feel comfortable in.

If you're really anal about performance, you go with aftermarket rings the correct size, which are pretty much guaranteed to be too tight and trim for the lower end of the tolerance range.

As for the orientation of your ring gaps, just make sure no two gaps are lined up. The reason there are 2 'C' marks is because the manual you're using is showing you there are two places you have to chose where to put the gap.