Vigor Starts, Runs then Stalls
08-29-2006, 12:58 PM
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Vigor Starts, Runs then Stalls
I'm searching for advice or resolutions to difficulties I'm experiencing with my '93 Vigor: engine stalling/quitting.
I noticed by the responses posted in the Forum that replies to other tech questions typically ask about the car's service history. So I've thoroughly detailed my Vigor's related mechanical background based on my service records and I've detailed all the steps I've taken recently to resolve the problem.
PLEASE READ ALL of what I've posted here, and if there's anything you can think of that I've missed, or a direction you'd suggest I look toward, I'd appreciate any posted replies, especially educated ones.
1993 Acura Vigor GS, has been in the family since new.
Auto trans 93,000 miles
CURRENT PROBLEM:
Every morning, the engine starts fine, fast-idles like-new and warms up to idle at a steady 750 rpm. But after driving a few miles, the engine sputters and dies after running smoothly up until that point.
I've been through most of what the factory service manual suggests.
I do not have a fuel pressure tester.
This post is extra loooong so's to provide any interested diagnosticians with as much data as possible.
SERVICE/MAINTENANCE HISTORY:
Prior to 36,000 miles, all Vigor maintenance, service and repairs (drive belts, master cylinder, even a Honda battery) were handled by the selling Acura dealer.
Since, almost all maintenance, service and repairs have been handled by me (via a minor background at new car dealerships dating back to when we mainly sold and serviced pre-computerized carbureted V8s.)
Oil/filter changes always done at 3-5,000 mile intervals; Mineral oil and OE filters for the first 39,000, synthetic lube and Fram filter since
Smog checks on a dyno are required every two years in this state and all have all been passed Most recent smog test (on a dynamometer) passed in April 2005 at 80,123 miles. The car has always breezed through its dyno smog tests, even at the shop's 3000 foot altitude. Typical pre-test prep typically limited to sparkplug cleaning and re-gapping and air filter element cleanout with compressed air. Maybe overkill, it runs so clean.
Despite the climate extremes in this high-altitude area (hot summers, cold and snowy most winters), our Vigor had never been in any sort of accident or driving mishap nor has it ever missed a beat in all the years we've had it.
RECENT SERVICE/MAINTENANCE:
Sparkplugs new at 57,000: pulled, inspected, center electrode lightly filed square and regapped at 0.043-in. at 92,000.
Distributor cap, rotor, both distributor housing O-rings replaced w/new OE parts at 75,000 miles. The smell of oil leaking onto hot exhaust shielding revealed this problem. Fuel filter replaced w/new Honda part at 70,000 miles and again just recently at 92,000 miles (non-OE).
Air filter element new at 85,000 miles; cleaned regularly.
Halfshafts and CV joints replaced at 82,000.
CURRENT DIFFICULTIES DETAILED:
On a hot day (about 100F), after an hour of stop-and-go city traffic driving, I noticed a single stumble ("soft" unresponsive throttle for a brief moment only), at 70mph on the freeway. I shut the ac and made the rest of the trip without any further signs of what I suspected to be vapor lock.
Because the first fuel filter had lasted 70,000 and the new Honda filter only had 20,000 on it, it wasn't immediately suspect.
At that time, I wrapped the fuel lines between the pressure regulator and the fuel filter and a ways upstream of the filter with not-very-factory-appearing insulated foam-backed aluminum tape and aluminum foil secured with stainless steel wire wraps.
Pulled, inspected the sparkplugs.
Cleaned the air filter and airbox (all the way upstream to where the louvered inlet system begins undercar, and to where a deep puddle could block all air intake and kill the motor, as I noticed reported in another recent wounded Vigor post).
Cleaned the a.c., p.s. and coolant condensers.
Cleaned and topped-off battery cells w/distilled H2O.
Yeah, I baby it. But it also knows just how to act when I hammer it. Till recently, anyway.
After 600 more miles of flawless operation (since the original freeway "sputter"), on a not-too-hot day, with a half-tank of fuel, the car stalled again. Just prior to the stall it again felt/sounded like a vapor lock problem. A short while later the car started and ran fine.
Sixty miles later, after numerous stops (including a fillup), parking in the hot sun and moderate traffic, the car stalled a number of times but was okay to restart with multiple KO/KO pump cycles prior to cranking. No MIL light until stall; lamp shut after restart
..
After a stall and restart, throttle response felt soft (but not over-rich as per the smell, tailpipe outflow or sparkplug color). Idling in the garage, the engine (temp gauge still showed normal), was very "soft and lazy" when trying to accelerate it in neutral off-idle. When the throttle was opened too rapidly off-idle It, would stall almost every time (and "sound" like it was breathing air without fuel). At higher engine speeds (1500-plus) it ran, responded and accelerated quickly and smoothly.
After stalls, the fuel pump sounded fine when the key was cycled on/off prior to restarting. Starting required only slightly more than normal cranking but it did start every time with a max of 4-5 seconds of cranking each time. Idle quality remained normal.
I suspected problems with either the "still-new" fuel filter (possibly due to a "bad" tankful of fuel), or the fuel pressure regulator.
Without any means of measuring fuel pressure, the filter was replaced after only 22,260 miles (2-years, 4-months) with a new aftermarket fuel filter.
Initial evaluation of the filter change afterward was with the a.c. on. parked in the sun with the engine at idle and the gas cap sealed tightly for 15 minutes, then heat-soaked with engine off for 15 minutes and repeated with no noticeable problems. Did the same cycles run/stop at 1500 rpm. A drive around the hilly area revealed no problems, including stops and idling in gear and starts. Used kickdown numerous times into first and second without any hesitation or softness or problems. Auto upshifts always firm at 6400. Idle smooth at 750 (+/-) rpm (as always). Off-idle throttle response normal.
But the problem persisted. The next day it quit twice and it was only 85-degrees outside.. Restarting wasn't much of a problem.
The Factory Service Manual (FSM) troubleshooting flowchart says stalling when hot and cold is due to the fuel pressure regulator, which I removed. Drawing air from the vacuum side while blocking the fuel rail port held vacuum until the outlet was released and the diaphragm was heard/felt to return (so "no-load" functioning assumed to be okay).
All sparkplugs (single sidewire-type; were new at 57,000) removed, inspected (all colors light tan on the white porcelain, no insulator cement bubbling to indicate too-lean conditions), all five plug-to-plug coloring identical; center electrodes lightly filed square and re-gapped (set) at 0.043-in. and reinstalled.
The PVC valve was removed, shaken and heard to click, and reinstalled.
Hoses for the charcoal cannister were removed at both ends (intake manifold hoses #3 and #7), cleared gently with air and reinstalled. The canister's purge valve filter was also cleaned along with both canister vacuum hoses to/from it.
Checked all undercar fuel delivery and return lines, vent lines under the left side of the firewall/floorpan and all appeared externally okay, nothing apparently damaged or crushed.
Fuel return line and regulator and canister purge vacuum lines all checked clear.
Most accessible major electrical connectors underhood were disconnected, cleaned and firmly reconnected. Same with the fuel pump connector in the trunk.
Fuel tank remains about half-full.
Started the G25 and left it idling for three 30-minute stretches chocked in gear at idle with the a.c. on, and then ran it neutral at 1500rpm for three 30-minute stretches; and aside from vapor buildup in the fuel tank, no operating problems were detected. No road test at that time.
The next day, it started cold and fast-idled normally. After warming, I drove uphill in 80-degree temps and it quit within a mile-and-a-half. Restarting was much more difficult, but I was able to get running long enough to make it to the downhill, and coast a half-mile home. Hard starting again but it did and I made it up the drive and into the garage.
The idle remained smooth, but throttle response off-idle was soft.
Attempting to open the throttle produced a single soft "missfire" that I heard from the exhaust and the engine quit.
Not that I had any way to measure the fuel pressure or volume, but gas squired into my rags when the filter's "pressure port" was loosened and the ignition key was cycled. Same fuel presence noted when both ends of the fuel rail were loosened separately.
Spark was evident at all five sparkplug cables during cranking. Checked and found all air inlet paths open from the FAI undercar "scoop" to the throttle body.
Cleaned throttle body (Gumout till no residue on clean rags) but did not remove TB as I had no spare manifold gasket. Idle was smoother and steadier, even after a similar warmup to the day's first warmup. Or maybe I was trippin. But after driving less than a mile uphill, the engine stalled (coasted back to driveway and restarted after 10 minutes of multi-KO/KO cycles.
Followed FSM steps for "Idle Check" (disconnected IAC, started engine as specified, adjust idle to spec, MIL lighted), reset ECM by removing 10A BackUp fuse for ten seconds, reconnected IAC, check idle speed as specified (w/rear defroster, high-beams on) then with a.c. on high, all idle speeds at specified 750 rpm. All appears okay. MIL extinguished immediately on startup.
Again did my heat soak test (idle, ac on, in gear for 30 min.). Drove up and down the steep driveway (reverse down, in forward ranges coming up) w/ac, fan, rear defroster, high beams on, even starting in 2nd (gently), and starting in 1st and shifting 1-2 and. 2-3 going uphill, and noticed no signs of difficulty. Ran the steering lock-to-lock (parked) and the idle barely fluctuated. Did hot sun heat soak test again (hood closed, at idle, ac on, in gear for 15 minutes) and "vapor lock symptoms" struck again and it stalled, not too hard to restart, throttle response again soft then smooth, soft then smooth.
The next day, without warming the engine, the IAC was removed (despite the fact that the engine has never experienced anything approaching unstable idle). The metal screen in one of the IA valve's two external ports to the intake manifold was sorta black. I held it ports-down and blew it out (across the port, not in) and then used a brass wire brush to gently clean it further and then blew it out again. Used Gumout spray in both ports and blew them dry and clean.
The IAC valve was not disassembled. The bottom plate (with the two water nipples) is held on with three Phillips head screws that were exceptionally tight so I did not make a serious attempt to remove them. The Allen-head screw in the valve's body is a metric size that I do not have, so again, it was not removed. If a thorough IAC cleaning requires more disassembly than I did, then a thorough cleanout was not performed. (I can sure use some tech tips on further disassembly, if anybody has some.)
Reinstalled IAC valve and the engine restarted immediately and fast-idled/idled as smooth as ever with crisp throttle response.
As described in the previous paragraphs, again did a heat soak again (closed hood, at idle, ac on, in gear for 30 min.). Drove up and down the driveway w/ac, rear defroster, high beams on and noticed no signs of difficulty at first. But after a few cycles up and down the drive, I ran the engine in neutral at 2500-3000 rpm and that seemed to provoke poorer throttle response (from any rpm at that range and from lower rpm), until what again felt like "vapor lock symptoms" struck again and the engine stalled, harder to restart (even with multi-KO/KO cycles).
This time, even after a restart, the engine would run rough and stall after I put it gear and cracked the throttle, however gradually.
After a number of the stalls, I loosened the fuel filter's pressure port screw and as always, fuel was present.
When it did restart for maybe the fifth time, throttle response off-idle in neutral was improved. In the garage, idle was smooth and stable at 750.
Fuel tank level at slightly less than half-full.
NEXT:
Finding a 6mm male fitting for the fuel pressure gauge to filter port has been difficult, but a pressure check is next. A check will tell me whether or not the pump is supplying the proper pressure and if the regulator properly increases psi when intake vacuum drops. But a pressure gauge won't tell me anything about delivery volume, specially under load. I've never heard of a fuel delivery VOLUME problem with an in-tank electric pump (typically, they just quit working), but if necessary, I'm prepared to drop the tank and install the new spare pump that I've been carrying in the trunk for the past coupla years. (I bought one after the OE pump made some odd noises for a few days and then quieted down as soon as the replacement pump was packed in the spare tire well.) Hopefully a pump replacement will not be necessary.
Before replacing the pump, I'll check for oil inside the distributor cap to see if I did a sloppy job of replacing the O-rings when I did it some 15,000 miles ago. There's no external seepage/weepage or smell evident in this area as there was the first time I changed the O-rings..
NOTES:
The fuel pump always runs for two-seconds after the key is switched on (as long as the Check Engine lamp stays lit during prove-out), and the pump and underdash relay noises always sound the same.
I'm aware that the fuel pump has an internal valve that maintains residual pressure in the system even when the engine is off. So I figure most of my key-cycling to 'prime' the system is most likely unnecessary. It's prolly a product of habits developed using lottsa older iron here in the extreme operating conditions that this Vigor sees. But if, as I'm assuming, the pump ain't delivering like it usta, maybe now my key-cycling has become necessary. Is it possible that the KO/KO cycling fills the plumbing right up to the injectors and the pump just can't keep up under load?
Still no MIL (The Check Engine lamp lights on prove-out and it did come on when as described above when I unplugged the IAC and started the engine the first time.)
Following each applicable service, the cooling system was "burped" (engine on and warmed) at both front and rear air bleeders.
The Factory Service Manual (FSM) states that if the engine starts and runs (which it always does), then the PGM-F1 main relay is functioning properly. The relay feels warm to the touch after the engine's been running a while, but it doesn't appear to get hot. And I can always hear it when I turn the key.
Quite a bit of vapor is released from the fuel tank when the gas cap is loosened. I can't tell if there's more or less compared to last summer. But cap loose OR tight, there doesn't appear to be any difference in the way the engine runs or doesn't run, or the way it restarts or fails to restart. And a loose cap does not activate the MIL as it will in some cars.
I just can't help but admire the fine quality of Honda's plastic electrical connectors. Lottsa other 14-year-old cars' plastic connex virtually crumble when you touch 'em--but not these. And the same for the quality of the rubber hoses; every square-cut hose-end has stayed that way for 14-years--unfrayed and uncracked everywhere. They make vehicle servicing a lot simpler.
Thanks,
adK
I noticed by the responses posted in the Forum that replies to other tech questions typically ask about the car's service history. So I've thoroughly detailed my Vigor's related mechanical background based on my service records and I've detailed all the steps I've taken recently to resolve the problem.
PLEASE READ ALL of what I've posted here, and if there's anything you can think of that I've missed, or a direction you'd suggest I look toward, I'd appreciate any posted replies, especially educated ones.
1993 Acura Vigor GS, has been in the family since new.
Auto trans 93,000 miles
CURRENT PROBLEM:
Every morning, the engine starts fine, fast-idles like-new and warms up to idle at a steady 750 rpm. But after driving a few miles, the engine sputters and dies after running smoothly up until that point.
I've been through most of what the factory service manual suggests.
I do not have a fuel pressure tester.
This post is extra loooong so's to provide any interested diagnosticians with as much data as possible.
SERVICE/MAINTENANCE HISTORY:
Prior to 36,000 miles, all Vigor maintenance, service and repairs (drive belts, master cylinder, even a Honda battery) were handled by the selling Acura dealer.
Since, almost all maintenance, service and repairs have been handled by me (via a minor background at new car dealerships dating back to when we mainly sold and serviced pre-computerized carbureted V8s.)
Oil/filter changes always done at 3-5,000 mile intervals; Mineral oil and OE filters for the first 39,000, synthetic lube and Fram filter since
Smog checks on a dyno are required every two years in this state and all have all been passed Most recent smog test (on a dynamometer) passed in April 2005 at 80,123 miles. The car has always breezed through its dyno smog tests, even at the shop's 3000 foot altitude. Typical pre-test prep typically limited to sparkplug cleaning and re-gapping and air filter element cleanout with compressed air. Maybe overkill, it runs so clean.
Despite the climate extremes in this high-altitude area (hot summers, cold and snowy most winters), our Vigor had never been in any sort of accident or driving mishap nor has it ever missed a beat in all the years we've had it.
RECENT SERVICE/MAINTENANCE:
Sparkplugs new at 57,000: pulled, inspected, center electrode lightly filed square and regapped at 0.043-in. at 92,000.
Distributor cap, rotor, both distributor housing O-rings replaced w/new OE parts at 75,000 miles. The smell of oil leaking onto hot exhaust shielding revealed this problem. Fuel filter replaced w/new Honda part at 70,000 miles and again just recently at 92,000 miles (non-OE).
Air filter element new at 85,000 miles; cleaned regularly.
Halfshafts and CV joints replaced at 82,000.
CURRENT DIFFICULTIES DETAILED:
On a hot day (about 100F), after an hour of stop-and-go city traffic driving, I noticed a single stumble ("soft" unresponsive throttle for a brief moment only), at 70mph on the freeway. I shut the ac and made the rest of the trip without any further signs of what I suspected to be vapor lock.
Because the first fuel filter had lasted 70,000 and the new Honda filter only had 20,000 on it, it wasn't immediately suspect.
At that time, I wrapped the fuel lines between the pressure regulator and the fuel filter and a ways upstream of the filter with not-very-factory-appearing insulated foam-backed aluminum tape and aluminum foil secured with stainless steel wire wraps.
Pulled, inspected the sparkplugs.
Cleaned the air filter and airbox (all the way upstream to where the louvered inlet system begins undercar, and to where a deep puddle could block all air intake and kill the motor, as I noticed reported in another recent wounded Vigor post).
Cleaned the a.c., p.s. and coolant condensers.
Cleaned and topped-off battery cells w/distilled H2O.
Yeah, I baby it. But it also knows just how to act when I hammer it. Till recently, anyway.
After 600 more miles of flawless operation (since the original freeway "sputter"), on a not-too-hot day, with a half-tank of fuel, the car stalled again. Just prior to the stall it again felt/sounded like a vapor lock problem. A short while later the car started and ran fine.
Sixty miles later, after numerous stops (including a fillup), parking in the hot sun and moderate traffic, the car stalled a number of times but was okay to restart with multiple KO/KO pump cycles prior to cranking. No MIL light until stall; lamp shut after restart
..
After a stall and restart, throttle response felt soft (but not over-rich as per the smell, tailpipe outflow or sparkplug color). Idling in the garage, the engine (temp gauge still showed normal), was very "soft and lazy" when trying to accelerate it in neutral off-idle. When the throttle was opened too rapidly off-idle It, would stall almost every time (and "sound" like it was breathing air without fuel). At higher engine speeds (1500-plus) it ran, responded and accelerated quickly and smoothly.
After stalls, the fuel pump sounded fine when the key was cycled on/off prior to restarting. Starting required only slightly more than normal cranking but it did start every time with a max of 4-5 seconds of cranking each time. Idle quality remained normal.
I suspected problems with either the "still-new" fuel filter (possibly due to a "bad" tankful of fuel), or the fuel pressure regulator.
Without any means of measuring fuel pressure, the filter was replaced after only 22,260 miles (2-years, 4-months) with a new aftermarket fuel filter.
Initial evaluation of the filter change afterward was with the a.c. on. parked in the sun with the engine at idle and the gas cap sealed tightly for 15 minutes, then heat-soaked with engine off for 15 minutes and repeated with no noticeable problems. Did the same cycles run/stop at 1500 rpm. A drive around the hilly area revealed no problems, including stops and idling in gear and starts. Used kickdown numerous times into first and second without any hesitation or softness or problems. Auto upshifts always firm at 6400. Idle smooth at 750 (+/-) rpm (as always). Off-idle throttle response normal.
But the problem persisted. The next day it quit twice and it was only 85-degrees outside.. Restarting wasn't much of a problem.
The Factory Service Manual (FSM) troubleshooting flowchart says stalling when hot and cold is due to the fuel pressure regulator, which I removed. Drawing air from the vacuum side while blocking the fuel rail port held vacuum until the outlet was released and the diaphragm was heard/felt to return (so "no-load" functioning assumed to be okay).
All sparkplugs (single sidewire-type; were new at 57,000) removed, inspected (all colors light tan on the white porcelain, no insulator cement bubbling to indicate too-lean conditions), all five plug-to-plug coloring identical; center electrodes lightly filed square and re-gapped (set) at 0.043-in. and reinstalled.
The PVC valve was removed, shaken and heard to click, and reinstalled.
Hoses for the charcoal cannister were removed at both ends (intake manifold hoses #3 and #7), cleared gently with air and reinstalled. The canister's purge valve filter was also cleaned along with both canister vacuum hoses to/from it.
Checked all undercar fuel delivery and return lines, vent lines under the left side of the firewall/floorpan and all appeared externally okay, nothing apparently damaged or crushed.
Fuel return line and regulator and canister purge vacuum lines all checked clear.
Most accessible major electrical connectors underhood were disconnected, cleaned and firmly reconnected. Same with the fuel pump connector in the trunk.
Fuel tank remains about half-full.
Started the G25 and left it idling for three 30-minute stretches chocked in gear at idle with the a.c. on, and then ran it neutral at 1500rpm for three 30-minute stretches; and aside from vapor buildup in the fuel tank, no operating problems were detected. No road test at that time.
The next day, it started cold and fast-idled normally. After warming, I drove uphill in 80-degree temps and it quit within a mile-and-a-half. Restarting was much more difficult, but I was able to get running long enough to make it to the downhill, and coast a half-mile home. Hard starting again but it did and I made it up the drive and into the garage.
The idle remained smooth, but throttle response off-idle was soft.
Attempting to open the throttle produced a single soft "missfire" that I heard from the exhaust and the engine quit.
Not that I had any way to measure the fuel pressure or volume, but gas squired into my rags when the filter's "pressure port" was loosened and the ignition key was cycled. Same fuel presence noted when both ends of the fuel rail were loosened separately.
Spark was evident at all five sparkplug cables during cranking. Checked and found all air inlet paths open from the FAI undercar "scoop" to the throttle body.
Cleaned throttle body (Gumout till no residue on clean rags) but did not remove TB as I had no spare manifold gasket. Idle was smoother and steadier, even after a similar warmup to the day's first warmup. Or maybe I was trippin. But after driving less than a mile uphill, the engine stalled (coasted back to driveway and restarted after 10 minutes of multi-KO/KO cycles.
Followed FSM steps for "Idle Check" (disconnected IAC, started engine as specified, adjust idle to spec, MIL lighted), reset ECM by removing 10A BackUp fuse for ten seconds, reconnected IAC, check idle speed as specified (w/rear defroster, high-beams on) then with a.c. on high, all idle speeds at specified 750 rpm. All appears okay. MIL extinguished immediately on startup.
Again did my heat soak test (idle, ac on, in gear for 30 min.). Drove up and down the steep driveway (reverse down, in forward ranges coming up) w/ac, fan, rear defroster, high beams on, even starting in 2nd (gently), and starting in 1st and shifting 1-2 and. 2-3 going uphill, and noticed no signs of difficulty. Ran the steering lock-to-lock (parked) and the idle barely fluctuated. Did hot sun heat soak test again (hood closed, at idle, ac on, in gear for 15 minutes) and "vapor lock symptoms" struck again and it stalled, not too hard to restart, throttle response again soft then smooth, soft then smooth.
The next day, without warming the engine, the IAC was removed (despite the fact that the engine has never experienced anything approaching unstable idle). The metal screen in one of the IA valve's two external ports to the intake manifold was sorta black. I held it ports-down and blew it out (across the port, not in) and then used a brass wire brush to gently clean it further and then blew it out again. Used Gumout spray in both ports and blew them dry and clean.
The IAC valve was not disassembled. The bottom plate (with the two water nipples) is held on with three Phillips head screws that were exceptionally tight so I did not make a serious attempt to remove them. The Allen-head screw in the valve's body is a metric size that I do not have, so again, it was not removed. If a thorough IAC cleaning requires more disassembly than I did, then a thorough cleanout was not performed. (I can sure use some tech tips on further disassembly, if anybody has some.)
Reinstalled IAC valve and the engine restarted immediately and fast-idled/idled as smooth as ever with crisp throttle response.
As described in the previous paragraphs, again did a heat soak again (closed hood, at idle, ac on, in gear for 30 min.). Drove up and down the driveway w/ac, rear defroster, high beams on and noticed no signs of difficulty at first. But after a few cycles up and down the drive, I ran the engine in neutral at 2500-3000 rpm and that seemed to provoke poorer throttle response (from any rpm at that range and from lower rpm), until what again felt like "vapor lock symptoms" struck again and the engine stalled, harder to restart (even with multi-KO/KO cycles).
This time, even after a restart, the engine would run rough and stall after I put it gear and cracked the throttle, however gradually.
After a number of the stalls, I loosened the fuel filter's pressure port screw and as always, fuel was present.
When it did restart for maybe the fifth time, throttle response off-idle in neutral was improved. In the garage, idle was smooth and stable at 750.
Fuel tank level at slightly less than half-full.
NEXT:
Finding a 6mm male fitting for the fuel pressure gauge to filter port has been difficult, but a pressure check is next. A check will tell me whether or not the pump is supplying the proper pressure and if the regulator properly increases psi when intake vacuum drops. But a pressure gauge won't tell me anything about delivery volume, specially under load. I've never heard of a fuel delivery VOLUME problem with an in-tank electric pump (typically, they just quit working), but if necessary, I'm prepared to drop the tank and install the new spare pump that I've been carrying in the trunk for the past coupla years. (I bought one after the OE pump made some odd noises for a few days and then quieted down as soon as the replacement pump was packed in the spare tire well.) Hopefully a pump replacement will not be necessary.
Before replacing the pump, I'll check for oil inside the distributor cap to see if I did a sloppy job of replacing the O-rings when I did it some 15,000 miles ago. There's no external seepage/weepage or smell evident in this area as there was the first time I changed the O-rings..
NOTES:
The fuel pump always runs for two-seconds after the key is switched on (as long as the Check Engine lamp stays lit during prove-out), and the pump and underdash relay noises always sound the same.
I'm aware that the fuel pump has an internal valve that maintains residual pressure in the system even when the engine is off. So I figure most of my key-cycling to 'prime' the system is most likely unnecessary. It's prolly a product of habits developed using lottsa older iron here in the extreme operating conditions that this Vigor sees. But if, as I'm assuming, the pump ain't delivering like it usta, maybe now my key-cycling has become necessary. Is it possible that the KO/KO cycling fills the plumbing right up to the injectors and the pump just can't keep up under load?
Still no MIL (The Check Engine lamp lights on prove-out and it did come on when as described above when I unplugged the IAC and started the engine the first time.)
Following each applicable service, the cooling system was "burped" (engine on and warmed) at both front and rear air bleeders.
The Factory Service Manual (FSM) states that if the engine starts and runs (which it always does), then the PGM-F1 main relay is functioning properly. The relay feels warm to the touch after the engine's been running a while, but it doesn't appear to get hot. And I can always hear it when I turn the key.
Quite a bit of vapor is released from the fuel tank when the gas cap is loosened. I can't tell if there's more or less compared to last summer. But cap loose OR tight, there doesn't appear to be any difference in the way the engine runs or doesn't run, or the way it restarts or fails to restart. And a loose cap does not activate the MIL as it will in some cars.
I just can't help but admire the fine quality of Honda's plastic electrical connectors. Lottsa other 14-year-old cars' plastic connex virtually crumble when you touch 'em--but not these. And the same for the quality of the rubber hoses; every square-cut hose-end has stayed that way for 14-years--unfrayed and uncracked everywhere. They make vehicle servicing a lot simpler.
Thanks,
adK
08-29-2006, 05:02 PM
#2
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I can't believe I read through that whole thing. But my take on it is it has to be something with the fuel system. One thing that you brought up was a slight misfire. You might want to check if your vehicle has a TDC sensor and if it does, make sure that is not going bad. Lastly, have you tried throwing on a new set of spark plug wires just to rule that out also?
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Honda-Acura.net Vigor/TL/CL Forum Moderator.
Comptech Icebox, Headers, Exhaust, Lowering Springs and Sway Bars. Mugen front grille. Inspire tailamps. MOMO Sport 18 X 7.5 +42 offset. Axxis Metal Master front/rear pad. 2 Polk/MOMO 10" subs, Orion Xtreme 500.4 amplifier and Alpine CD changer.
08-29-2006, 06:11 PM
#3
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TDC Sensor & Plug Wires
Thanks for taking the time to read through the entire volume that I posted here.
Yes, the engine has a TDC sensor.
Resistance of all sparkplug cables and the coil cable are within FSM specs (25,000 ohms at 70F).
I'll mention again the engine's instant cold startup, smooth idle characteristics and its smooth operation until:
the engine speed is held at 2500-3000 rpm for 10-15 seconds
or
the car is driven a few miles
then
the idle quality degrades and throttle response softens, pre-stall. and then it always restarts, sometimes with difficulty.
i appreciate your input.
adK
Yes, the engine has a TDC sensor.
Resistance of all sparkplug cables and the coil cable are within FSM specs (25,000 ohms at 70F).
I'll mention again the engine's instant cold startup, smooth idle characteristics and its smooth operation until:
the engine speed is held at 2500-3000 rpm for 10-15 seconds
or
the car is driven a few miles
then
the idle quality degrades and throttle response softens, pre-stall. and then it always restarts, sometimes with difficulty.
i appreciate your input.
adK
08-29-2006, 06:14 PM
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Vigor TDC Sensor & Plug Wires
Thanks for taking the time to read through the entire volume that I posted here.
Yes, the engine has a TDC sensor (behind the top section of the belt cover).
Resistance of all sparkplug cables and the coil cable are within FSM specs (25,000 ohms at 70F).
I'll mention again the engine's instant cold startup, smooth idle characteristics and its smooth operation until:
the engine speed is held at 2500-3000 rpm for 10-15 seconds
or
the car is driven a few miles
then
the idle quality degrades and throttle response softens, pre-stall. and then it always restarts, sometimes with difficulty.
I appreciate your input.
adK
Yes, the engine has a TDC sensor (behind the top section of the belt cover).
Resistance of all sparkplug cables and the coil cable are within FSM specs (25,000 ohms at 70F).
I'll mention again the engine's instant cold startup, smooth idle characteristics and its smooth operation until:
the engine speed is held at 2500-3000 rpm for 10-15 seconds
or
the car is driven a few miles
then
the idle quality degrades and throttle response softens, pre-stall. and then it always restarts, sometimes with difficulty.
I appreciate your input.
adK
09-06-2006, 08:39 AM
#5
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Vigor Stalls no more - Runs Fine, thanks.
Intermittent operation problem solved.
The engine finally "did me a favor" by stalling in a handy spot and then refusing to restart.
There was fuel at the filter after cranking, Checked for (cranking) spark at the plugs and there was none. Checked for spark at the coil wire and there WAS spark. That quickly narrowed it down to the distributor, which as lottsa Vigor owners know isn't too easy to access because it sits very close to the firewall.
As I'd mentioned in my initial posting of this situation, I wanted to check for oil inside the distributor cap to see if I did a sloppy job of replacing the O-rings when I did it some 15,000 miles ago. I saw no external seepage/weepage in this area and there was no burning oil smell as there was the first time I had to change the O-rings.
Instead of yanking the battery and the heat shielding to get at the cap and then the distributor, I made a crude but handy oil dipstick from a white plastic tie-wrap. Vigor distributor caps are vented through a pair of rubber tubes to the space underneath the fuel rail cover. (I've heard that venting the ozone created by rotor-to-cap terminal arcing makes for a friendlier atmosphere inside the cap for the current to flow.) Using my old spare cap as a guide, I pulled the rubber vent tubes off and rough-positioned the old rotor inside the (inverted on the bench) cap and stuck the tie wrap into the right/passenger-side vent hole. Because of the flexible wrap's natural curve (toward the serrations), I was easily able to push it in through the vent hole. A li'l low-tech jiggling and the tie-wrap practically followed the cap's contours around it's bottom.
Then I took a fresh, pliable white tie-wrap, extra long at 11 1/2-inches, gently pushed it down into the same vent hole on the cap on the engine. Withdrawing the tie-wrap after little more than the tip slipped in clearly showed that it had indeed struck oil, that my previous repair work was poor, and most importantly, it solved my intermittent ops mystery.
Pulled the cap and found oil in the cap and on the rotor. The cap's center carbon electrode post was almost worn down completely. It wasn't stuck in; it was wore almost flat with the inside surface of the cap! Replaced the O-rings with new ones that had a 0.012-in. too-small material diameter, but the good Buna-N rubber and I'd assumed okay temporarily. Re-installed an old cap and rotor (the OE pieces originally installed in Japan in late 1992 and now with w/75K miles), and the car fired right up and ran fine for the 500 miles it was needed for before a dealer could get me a new cap, rotor and replacement O-rings. A fillup along the way (after rural driving in very hot conditions w/some a.c. use) returned the Vigor's typical 25-plus mpg.
Thanks to any and all forum members that took time to at least look at some of this huge post and gave it a moment's thought. And thanks too, to member/moderator AcuraTL, for reading everything that I posted and for responding quickly with input.
adK
The engine finally "did me a favor" by stalling in a handy spot and then refusing to restart.
There was fuel at the filter after cranking, Checked for (cranking) spark at the plugs and there was none. Checked for spark at the coil wire and there WAS spark. That quickly narrowed it down to the distributor, which as lottsa Vigor owners know isn't too easy to access because it sits very close to the firewall.
As I'd mentioned in my initial posting of this situation, I wanted to check for oil inside the distributor cap to see if I did a sloppy job of replacing the O-rings when I did it some 15,000 miles ago. I saw no external seepage/weepage in this area and there was no burning oil smell as there was the first time I had to change the O-rings.
Instead of yanking the battery and the heat shielding to get at the cap and then the distributor, I made a crude but handy oil dipstick from a white plastic tie-wrap. Vigor distributor caps are vented through a pair of rubber tubes to the space underneath the fuel rail cover. (I've heard that venting the ozone created by rotor-to-cap terminal arcing makes for a friendlier atmosphere inside the cap for the current to flow.) Using my old spare cap as a guide, I pulled the rubber vent tubes off and rough-positioned the old rotor inside the (inverted on the bench) cap and stuck the tie wrap into the right/passenger-side vent hole. Because of the flexible wrap's natural curve (toward the serrations), I was easily able to push it in through the vent hole. A li'l low-tech jiggling and the tie-wrap practically followed the cap's contours around it's bottom.
Then I took a fresh, pliable white tie-wrap, extra long at 11 1/2-inches, gently pushed it down into the same vent hole on the cap on the engine. Withdrawing the tie-wrap after little more than the tip slipped in clearly showed that it had indeed struck oil, that my previous repair work was poor, and most importantly, it solved my intermittent ops mystery.
Pulled the cap and found oil in the cap and on the rotor. The cap's center carbon electrode post was almost worn down completely. It wasn't stuck in; it was wore almost flat with the inside surface of the cap! Replaced the O-rings with new ones that had a 0.012-in. too-small material diameter, but the good Buna-N rubber and I'd assumed okay temporarily. Re-installed an old cap and rotor (the OE pieces originally installed in Japan in late 1992 and now with w/75K miles), and the car fired right up and ran fine for the 500 miles it was needed for before a dealer could get me a new cap, rotor and replacement O-rings. A fillup along the way (after rural driving in very hot conditions w/some a.c. use) returned the Vigor's typical 25-plus mpg.
Thanks to any and all forum members that took time to at least look at some of this huge post and gave it a moment's thought. And thanks too, to member/moderator AcuraTL, for reading everything that I posted and for responding quickly with input.
adK
09-06-2006, 11:48 PM
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Wow, I am glad you got your problem solved. Now go out and enjoy your car.
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Honda-Acura.net Vigor/TL/CL Forum Moderator.
Comptech Icebox, Headers, Exhaust, Lowering Springs and Sway Bars. Mugen front grille. Inspire tailamps. MOMO Sport 18 X 7.5 +42 offset. Axxis Metal Master front/rear pad. 2 Polk/MOMO 10" subs, Orion Xtreme 500.4 amplifier and Alpine CD changer.
02-13-2012, 09:58 AM
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adK,
It is not the year 2012, and I am having the same exact problem as you. I too, believe that it was a fuel problem, but now that I have read through your entire post, and thankfully, the solution as well, I will take note to the dizzy area once again. I did notice some oil residue at the vents, but didn't pay much mind to it, thinking it was surely the gas, or a bad tank of gas. In my case, I checked for spark when the engine stalled, and I did see spark both at the coil and the end of the wire. I'll definately double check that again.
If you are reading this, thank you!
It is not the year 2012, and I am having the same exact problem as you. I too, believe that it was a fuel problem, but now that I have read through your entire post, and thankfully, the solution as well, I will take note to the dizzy area once again. I did notice some oil residue at the vents, but didn't pay much mind to it, thinking it was surely the gas, or a bad tank of gas. In my case, I checked for spark when the engine stalled, and I did see spark both at the coil and the end of the wire. I'll definately double check that again.
If you are reading this, thank you!
02-16-2012, 09:11 AM
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Turns out the dizzy was indeed at fault, and the Vigor is roaring once again. This article has been of great help, much thanks to the author for his detail in description and solution of the problem.
-Shawn
-Shawn